Playing by ear Vs. reading music

[Rich]

I can't read. I'm not proud of it, but I'm certainly not about to feel ashamed because of it. I'm blessed with a very good ear and can pick stuff up *[i]snap[/i]* like that, generally. If I could read, I wouldn't necessarily be a better player of my instrument, I'd still be at the same average level I am now. Perhaps I would be a better or more complete [i]musician[/i] though? Whatever.
Anyway, I can't read, and I'm not about to lose any sleep or hang my head in shame over it.

[ironside1966]

I can read and that has made me a better player but not necessary a better player the everyone who can’t read, It has given me accesses to play tunes from Jaco , Bach and many more they would be imposable for most people to learn properly by ear, How many of us has the ability to work out a Charlie Parker sax solo by ear?

I have to admit that I don’t understand why universities graduates can’t read music as this limits your potential for employment I know some people get around it but it must be limiting in many respects of employment.


In a lot of cases in popular music qualifications aren’t worth the paper there written on.
In the more traditional world of music where qualifications count it is taken for granted you can read.

“Trouble is, you study music for too long, you end up playing rubbish. Simple, melodic basslines start to bore you, you start analysing everything you play, next thing you know, you're churning out suff like Jeff Berlin”

A good musician Plays what is right for the track it may be a simple melodic bass line but they have more options

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='477834' date='May 2 2009, 05:42 PM']I can see that.

Another example of what appears to be someone justifying their decision not to learn to read music. And not accept someone elses point of view because it is contradictory.

Maybe you should try to re-read the whole thing again - impartially. It is only my opinion and you should not take it personally, but it appears to have struck a raw nerve. It does not denigrate people who can't read music. My point of view was that I think a musican benefits from both, and reading music can help develop a good ear. Don't take my word for it, ask any pro musician. And then let us know the outcome.

Don't let my point of view aggravate you, it's just a point of view. I can accept yours, but not when you don't appear to have read my points and not answered them in a relevant way. For example, my comment:-

[b]"it seems to be the non-readers that are trying to justify their inability to interpret the written element of music" [/b]- Your response - "I'm sorry, but standard notation is not THE written element of music. It is ONE OF the written elements of music." Where did I mention standard notation? If you are talking about tab notation as an alternative (I will assume) it is a waste of time and a lazy alternative for people who don't want to learn to read music. It is actually quicker to learn to read STANDARD NOTATION than use a "join the dots" type of primitive notation. Tab notation was developed to help sell sheet music to people who couldn't read STANDARD NOTATION. Check it out.

It seems to be a waste of time trying to make any point of view on here if it contradicts the majority, because as in the other responses to the people who can read music, the hostility is absurd. I note that readers with difering opinions who have contributed their 2p to this have basically given up on it.

I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities and tend to stick to one type of music. And very opinionated they are about that too, just as I am being now - but this is my personal experience. Just because they like a certain type of music or musician, they think it is "good". There is a huge difference between something being played well by a talented musician than an average joe playing some banal 3 chord tripe (and even then, on most of the produced albums, not only do they use auto vocal tuners for the untalented/untrained vocalists, but on many occasions, studios have to hire external musicians who can actually read music for the backing tracks).

The mods really should start to crack down on personal attacks on people who make opinions in a general non specific manner. I appreciate your point of view, and certainly do not take it personally. I am also certainly not elitist, just a very experienced musician of 40 years standing who really has seen it all and am expressing my viewpoint. I also listen to all types of music, but I also know the difference between a great musician, regardless of the genre of music, and someone who has lesser talent. But that doesn't mean to say I can't listen to both and appreciate differing elements of ability or the musical content.

I have learned my lesson today though, I certainly won't make any more comments unless it agrees with the majority, then we can all be smug in the knowledge that we must be correct because everyone agrees with each other (at least superficially), and we don't have anyone with any individualistic responses. But then again, we can all rise up, tell them they are talking a load of sh*te and then they won't contribute any more anyway? Job well done!!

EDIT: After thought:- I don't know who said it but it's true - no one can make you feel inferior without your own consent. Think about it.[/quote]

It genuinely blows my mind that you can claim that I don't accept other people's points of view, when every third post I've made in this thread states that I completely understand the value of reading even though I don't do it myself, and yet all you've done is belittle people who have chosen not to read.

Advocate the actual merits of reading until the cows come home and I'll echo your sentiments and back you up 100%. But if you're gonna make comments about how commercial stuff and blues or metal don't necessitate any musical skill, or how tab is a waste of time for lazy people, or how non-readers are all creatively limited, then I have to call bulls**t, because that's what it plainly is. If you don't want to be called elitist, try not being elitist.

And let's be clear here, I certainly don't feel inferior to you, even though your statements make it quite clear that you think I am.

So I'll say it again. There is clearly a good value to learning how to read classical or standard notation. However, not doing so doesn't mean you're doomed to be a second-class muso who can only produce banal dirge, and those who claim that this is the case really aren't helping anyone.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='477832' date='May 2 2009, 05:38 PM']Why do people who know stuff always get called elitist by people who don't? People who can read generally value it (me included). But why, if I value something, am I accused of being elitist if I advocate for it? Its no different than advocating for Wal basses or Eden amps. It works for me.[/quote]

If you check back, the reason I referred to someone as elitist was not because he knows something I don't or was advocating for it, but because he made a load of misrepresentative and obliquely insulting generalisations about, to loosely paraphrase, how people who don't read are all substandard musicians.

Edited May 3, 2009 by maxrossell

[maxrossell]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='478211' date='May 3 2009, 01:56 PM']I have to admit that I don’t understand why universities graduates can’t read music as this limits your potential for employment I know some people get around it but it must be limiting in many respects of employment.

In a lot of cases in popular music qualifications aren’t worth the paper there written on.
In the more traditional world of music where qualifications count it is taken for granted you can read.[/quote]

In response to this, the people who ran the degree course I did come from a school of thought where standard notation, although not dismissed and still thought of as a very valuable tool (and also taught and supported where desired), is not considered to be an absolute prerequisite in order to be a successful musician.

And you're absolutely right that in the more traditional world of music it is taken for granted that you should be able to read standard notation. However outside of that field there is an entire industry within which you can operate in many roles with a great deal of success without knowing how to read music.

[ironside1966]

IMHO Talent is Talent whether you can read on not

Just some thoughts, I thought a degree gave you the tools to make a living at music, give you a better chance than others without the education or why get yourself into a lot of debt. I am talking about the bread and butter work that most people do not your drams jobs for a few. The better paid work involves musical skills EG, teaching in schools, collage, unis, shows, run of the mill recording sessions like adverts.

“However outside of that field there is an entire industry within which you can operate in many roles with a great deal of success without knowing how to read music.”
I totally agree but they have little or no respect for formal qualifications also so again why get yourself into debt.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='ironside1966' post='478268' date='May 3 2009, 03:07 PM']IMHO Talent is Talent whether you can read on not

Just some thoughts, I thought a degree gave you the tools to make a living at music, give you a better chance than others without the education or why get yourself into a lot of debt. I am talking about the bread and butter work that most people do not your drams jobs for a few. The better paid work involves musical skills EG, teaching in schools, collage, unis, shows, run of the mill recording sessions like adverts.

“However outside of that field there is an entire industry within which you can operate in many roles with a great deal of success without knowing how to read music.”
I totally agree but they have little or no respect for formal qualifications also so again why get yourself into debt.[/quote]

Personally I didn't go to university to improve my CV, I went because I wanted to learn more about making music. A little unrealistic, you might say, but it was worth it to me. Had I looked at it as a career thing, then as I said above there was lots of formal skills teaching available to me, I just chose to not go down that road.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478274' date='May 3 2009, 03:16 PM']Personally I didn't go to university to improve my CV, I went because I wanted to learn more about making music. A little unrealistic, you might say, but it was worth it to me. Had I looked at it as a career thing, then as I said above there was lots of formal skills teaching available to me, I just chose to not go down that road.[/quote]

Without being judgemental about the course you took, I still find it utterly mind blowing that you can walk away from any university with a first in Music without the ability to read, given that it's not that long ago that the ability to read was a requirement to take O-Level Music.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='478344' date='May 3 2009, 05:12 PM']Without being judgemental about the course you took, I still find it utterly mind blowing that you can walk away from any university with a first in Music without the ability to read, given that it's not that long ago that the ability to read was a requirement to take O-Level Music.[/quote]

Yeah, I can see how it would appear surprising. But if you took the course you'd understand completely. It's about as far removed from an O-Level or an A-Level in music as you can get. It's really geared towards composition, sound design and production techniques, many of which throw traditional notions of "write song/play song" out of the window entirely. In fact, some of the people on the course weren't even instrumentists. The idea of requiring us to take a module in traditional notation would have been frankly bizarre.

[ironside1966]

Without going into too much detail I worked as a pro live engineer for quite a few year I had to give up for health reasons
Not wanting to spend the rest of my life on the sick I went into further education. Having spent 2 years at FE collage and now I am just completing my first year at Uni although my marks have all been high I do not feel that it would prepared me for any real Pro work in either attitude or ability. The older tutors at FE where great and so are the Uni tutors but I would be skeptical about the ability of the younger tutors in a commercial environment.
Saying that I have learnt a great deal.

[rslaing]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478356' date='May 3 2009, 05:41 PM']Yeah, I can see how it would appear surprising. But if you took the course you'd understand completely. It's about as far removed from an O-Level or an A-Level in music as you can get. It's really geared towards composition, sound design and production techniques, many of which throw traditional notions of "write song/play song" out of the window entirely. In fact, some of the people on the course weren't even instrumentists. The idea of requiring us to take a module in traditional notation would have been frankly bizarre.[/quote]

So, to cut through all of this crap, can someone tell me the ADVANTAGES of not being able to read music? Because I can't think of any.................and it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting. Sorry, but that is how it comes over. If anyone can give me an advantage to not being able to read music, then you might change my mind.

Think about it, if you adopted the same attitude towards the english language (namely not being able to read it, but able to speak it) you couldn't read this or express yourself via the written word? WTF is the advantage of that? I stick to my original belief - people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering. It might work for manufactured sh*te in the music industry, but not for REAL musicians.

Learn to read music. it's never too late and is an advantage to anyone in their musical career, both in interpretation and expression. You don't have to be an expert.

Edited May 3, 2009 by rslaing

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478367' date='May 3 2009, 06:01 PM']people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering. It might work for manufactured sh*te in the music industry, but not for REAL musicians.[/quote]

Wow.. I'm trying to stay out of this, but that's bunkum. Sorry, man. That's reinforcing what some people have been saying about snobbery.

Again, for the record, I'm not anti-reading. I've just never felt compelled to do it. I'll repeat that until I'm blue in the face.

[wateroftyne]

Oh, and the advantage of not learning to read?

Well, for me, I didn't spend time learning to read. I spent it doing other stuff. That's about it, really.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478367' date='May 3 2009, 06:01 PM']So, to cut through all of this crap, can someone tell me the ADVANTAGES of not being able to read music? Because I can't think of any.................and it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting. Sorry, but that is how it comes over. If anyone can give me an advantage to not being able to read music, then you might change my mind.

Think about it, if you adopted the same attitude towards the english language (namely not being able to read it, but able to speak it) you couldn't read this or express yourself via the written word? WTF is the advantage of that? I stick to my original belief - people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering. It might work for manufactured sh*te in the music industry, but not for REAL musicians.[/quote]

Yeah? Well, I'm sorry, but I think it's genuinely pathetic that you have to insult and belittle something you have very little knowledge and no experience of just to get your point across.

There is no advantage to not knowing how to read music. I'm not claiming that there is. My point is that it doesn't [i]disadvantage[/i] people as devastatingly as you think it does.

And "REAL musicians"? Seriously, get over yourself. You know how to interpret a code it would take anyone about a fortnight to learn. It doesn't make you special.

[rslaing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478373' date='May 3 2009, 06:13 PM']Wow.. I'm trying to stay out of this, but that's bunkum. Sorry, man. That's reinforcing what some people have been saying about snobbery.

Again, for the record, I'm not anti-reading. I've just never felt compelled to do it. I'll repeat that until I'm blue in the face.[/quote]

O.K. I accept what you say. I am not against anyone NOT being able to read music either. But if being able to interpret music and play it by having the ability to read music is snobbery, than your statement means that everyone that can read music is potentially a snob? Surely it is to any musicians advantage to have the capability to read music. To argue against that is ridiculous.

Sorry, but it isn't bunkum, it's a logical explanation. Again, the reason you can answer as a moderator, any posts in this forum, is because you have the ability to read and write, and therefore express yourself. Music is no different. Can you imagine how much you would miss out on in life if you couldn't read or write? Again, music is no different - but really, you have to be able to do it to know what it must be like if you couldn't. No snobbery, just a logical fact.

Learn to read music - it is a distinct advantage, whether you are learning new songs or writing your own. Fact. But then again, I expect a deluge of answers from non-readers.

But I am still waiting for someone to give me a reason why it is an advantage by NOT being able to read music.

[rslaing]

[quote name='maxrossell' post='478381' date='May 3 2009, 06:17 PM']Yeah? Well, I'm sorry, but I think it's genuinely pathetic that you have to insult and belittle something you have very little knowledge and no experience of just to get your point across.

There is no advantage to not knowing how to read music. I'm not claiming that there is. My point is that it doesn't [i]disadvantage[/i] people as devastatingly as you think it does.

And "REAL musicians"? Seriously, get over yourself. You know how to interpret a code it would take anyone about a fortnight to learn. It doesn't make you special.[/quote]

I don't think I am special. I just find it an advantage being able to read music. As I said, I know a lot of musicians who regret not learning to do it, and none who have.

And most professional musicians know how to read music, and in spite of your belittling the benefits, it takes more than a fortnight to learn how to do it, otherwise I suspect you might have bothered.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478390' date='May 3 2009, 06:26 PM']But if being able to interpret music and play it by having the ability to read music is snobbery, than your statement means that everyone that can read music is potentially a snob?[/quote]

It's not the fact that you can read that makes you a snob. It's the fact that you claim that people who can't read are lazy and sh*t at music that makes you a snob.

[quote]But I am still waiting for someone to give me a reason why it is an advantage by NOT being able to read music.[/quote]

Like I said above. There is no advantage to not reading music. However that doesn't mean that people who don't read music are all automatically disadvantaged.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478390' date='May 3 2009, 06:26 PM']O.K. I accept what you say. I am not against anyone NOT being able to read music either. But if being able to interpret music and play it by having the ability to read music is snobbery, than your statement means that everyone that can read music is potentially a snob? Surely it is to any musicians advantage to have the capability to read music. To argue against that is ridiculous.

Sorry, but it isn't bunkum, it's a logical explanation. Again, the reason you can answer as a moderator, any posts in this forum, is because you have the ability to read and write, and therefore express yourself. Music is no different. Can you imagine how much you would miss out on in life if you couldn't read or write? Again, music is no different - but really, you have to be able to do it to know what it must be like if you couldn't. No snobbery, just a logical fact.

Learn to read music - it is a distinct advantage, whether you are learning new songs or writing your own. Fact. But then again, I expect a deluge of answers from non-readers.

But I am still waiting for someone to give me a reason why it is an advantage by NOT being able to read music.[/quote]
Why are people missing the fundamental point here? I don't give two hoots if ANYONE learns to read dots, TAB, whatever. I'm genuinely glad for them.

My musical life has been incredibly fulfilling - and at no point have I thought 'Dammit.. I wish I could read.' I just don't move in those musical circles.

While people continue to insult me and accuse me of not being a REAL musician (for example - only one of many accusations levelled at me and people like me), I'm going to respond with cries of 'snobbery!'.

...especially while I've said time and time again that I have no issue with people who have chosen to read. It's just not on.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478393' date='May 3 2009, 06:29 PM']I don't think I am special. I just find it an advantage being able to read music. As I said, I know a lot of musicians who regret not learning to do it, and none who have.

And most professional musicians know how to read music, and in spite of your belittling the benefits, it takes more than a fortnight to learn how to do it, otherwise I suspect you might have bothered.[/quote]

Show me some figures to back that up then. Because if you're saying that of everyone on the planet who makes any kind of living from playing any kind of musical instrument, the large majority know how to read standard notation, I think you might be slightly deluded.

And if you don't think you're special, what is it that you think gives you the authority to insult everyone who doesn't do things your way?

[rslaing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478398' date='May 3 2009, 06:34 PM']Why are people missing the fundamental point here? I don't give two hoots if ANYONE learns to read dots, TAB, whatever. I'm genuinely glad for them.

My musical life has been incredibly fulfilling - and at no point have I thought 'Dammit.. I wish I could read.' I just don't move in those musical circles.

While people continue to insult me and accuse me of not being a REAL musician (for example - only one of many accusations levelled at me and people like me), I'm going to respond with cries of 'snobbery!'.

...especially while I've said time and time again that I have no issue with people who have chosen to read. It's just not on.[/quote]

That is a perfectly reasonable and acceptable explanation of your position. As is mine, and the other responses from people who can read music. The problem with this forum (IMO) is that the subject of the threads always end up being taken personally by some people, and their responses tend to be quite hostile, and even in some cases degenerating into personal attacks on the people who have an opposing point of view.

But I would not call someone a "snob" for having a contradictory point of view to mine. Anyway, f*** it.....I am out of here, I really don't know why I bother. If someone had told me that my own opinion and posts had to be acceptable to the majority, I would not have wasted my time.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478418' date='May 3 2009, 06:49 PM']If someone had told me that my own opinion and posts had to be acceptable to the majority, I would not have wasted my time.[/quote]
I think you need to read this thread again, and a similar one that went the same way a few months back.

[maxrossell]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478418' date='May 3 2009, 06:49 PM']That is a perfectly reasonable and acceptable explanation of your position. As is mine, and the other responses from people who can read music. The problem with this forum (IMO) is that the subject of the threads always end up being taken personally by some people, and their responses tend to be quite hostile, and even in some cases degenerating into personal attacks on the people who have an opposing point of view.

But I would not call someone a "snob" for having a contradictory point of view to mine. Anyway, f*** it.....I am out of here, I really don't know why I bother. If someone had told me that my own opinion and posts had to be acceptable to the majority, I would not have wasted my time.[/quote]

Yeah, who would have thought that some people might object to you openly slagging them off. Crazy old world, ain't it.

I also agree that personal attacks are not cool. Here's some examples:

"it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting."

"people that can't read music are lazy, and somewhere early on in their musical aspirations decided that they could get where they wanted to be without bothering"

"I will make one further point about non reading players which I do hope will not cause you any further stress. I believe they are also limited in their creative abilities"

I think it's beyond belief that anyone would take offence from those comments. They are after all only based on your sincere belief that people who don't read music are a bunch of lazy untalented idiots who will never attain the stratospheric musical heights you believe standard notation has taken you to.

I know, I'm being sarcastic. It's my standard response to jaw-dropping arrogance.

[wateroftyne]

OK... I'll quantify that. I'm told by sight readers and learned theorists - time and time again - that I'm some sort of 'plink-plonk' player because I don't read, have limited theory, etc. etc.

The fact is, I'm out there doing it. Yes, that's right - a fact.

So, when that response gets no acknowledgement, but instead is met with the same tired accusations, how else am I supposed to respond other than to deduce that it's some sort of prejudice?

I have respect for these people. It's a shame there's very little coming back the other way.

Edited to add - there's nowt wrong with plink-plonk players. Honest.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='rslaing' post='478367' date='May 3 2009, 06:01 PM']So, to cut through all of this crap, can someone tell me the ADVANTAGES of not being able to read music? Because I can't think of any.................and it sounds like your music degree has all the authenticity of a first class honours in knitting. Sorry, but that is how it comes over. If anyone can give me an advantage to not being able to read music, then you might change my mind.[/quote]

You might joke, but there are some pretty good 'knitting' (Constructed Textiles) degrees on offer out there.

[rslaing]

[quote name='wateroftyne' post='478420' date='May 3 2009, 06:50 PM']I think you need to read this thread again, and a similar one that went the same way a few months back.[/quote]

Yep.. the thread started with "Interested to hear any opinions on preferred method of learning existing basslines.

For those who play by ear, do you always know what notes you are playing on the bass by the letter or do you just work on imitation? Do you know what the notes are on each fret on all strings, or again, just work by ear?
"

So the people who can read music gave their 2p worth and their advice on what they think is the best way. Then the non readers jump in and assassinate.

As I said, f*** it, I am out of here, it's starting to get a bit like the freemasons...................