Hybrid Amp Configurations

[Quilly]

Valve in > Class D out; Valve in > AB transistor out; Transistor in > Valve Power amp out.

What have you tried ? Whats the difference in sound and what would you recommend ?     

[foxyFuze]

Keen to hear opinions as I'm looking at getting a hybrid amp.

[barkin]

Don't get hung up on specs or what's in the box - it really doesn't matter.

Just get an amp that you like.

[Mudpup]

2 hours ago, barkin said:

Don't get hung up on specs or what's in the box - it really doesn't matter.

Just get an amp that you like.

This......

They'll all have their own sound - you just need to find one you like. I've got SS/Class D that sounds really valvey, valve/AB and SS/MosFet and they're all different but in a good way. I'm happy to gig all of them

[Soledad]

Don't know if anyone remembers the old Dan Armstrong graphic head. I got an early one (at considerable cost) - absolute disaster, could never get a useful sound at all (P bass). I then discovered he'd done a solid state pre and valve power. I believed at the time you want the valves in the pre so you can control overdrive, then use a clean power amp to get up to level.
I think it's generally right though to just see who uses what and how they sound - according to the reputations I should like Trace (I do), Ashdown (don't know ), Ampeg (I do)... you get the idea.

Here's the 'thing'

[Muzz]

3 hours ago, barkin said:

Don't get hung up on specs or what's in the box - it really doesn't matter.

Just get an amp that you like.

This - I've had them all, and it took me a while to stop being obsessed with the actual construction of the amp and focus on the sound. Oh, and the practicalities - I know for a fact I couldn't live with a 70lb box of bottles these days: I can't even live with 70lb of speaker cabs... 🙂

[Quilly]

Im Gassing for a fender bassman 500w, they look great . 

[three]

Tried just about every configuration (including just DI into FoH - ‘can be fantastic with a great engineer and great monitors). Current main rig is valve pre and A/B power. However, I’m not using the valves. These are by-passed with a SS pre straight to the power section (it’s a Hellborg into a DB750). Sounds glorious to me but it’s all so personal. I tend to play modern(ish) active basses (Status and Spector) but a P sounds pretty good too. My overall tonal aim is immediacy, clean extended dynamic range (capturing the complexity of the basses), lots of headroom and power. I have a small and light option (BAmp) that gets very close, but not as close as the above. Cab is a Berg HD210 - good for monitoring and more.  To take this in anither direction, I think a lot is in technique and fingers. I sometimes see bands with the most simple of rigs - P into cheap combo - and it sounds glorious

Edited April 2, 2019 by three

[Shaggy]

On 31 March 2019 at 13:27, Soledad said:

Don't know if anyone remembers the old Dan Armstrong graphic head. I got an early one (at considerable cost) - absolute disaster, could never get a useful sound at all (P bass). I then discovered he'd done a solid state pre and valve power. I believed at the time you want the valves in the pre so you can control overdrive, then use a clean power amp to get up to level.
I think it's generally right though to just see who uses what and how they sound - according to the reputations I should like Trace (I do), Ashdown (don't know ), Ampeg (I do)... you get the idea.

Here's the 'thing'

I think the '70's Music Man amps used the same SS pre / valve power configuration - Peavey did the same with some of their older guitar amps.   Didn't seem to make sense to me,, but they have their aficionados

My hybrid heads (mainly Mesa) have all been valve pre / MOS-FET power, been very happy with them as performing very similar to all-valve but more reliable and portable

[casapete]

14 hours ago, Shaggy said:

I think the '70's Music Man amps used the same SS pre / valve power configuration - Peavey did the same with some of their older guitar amps.   Didn't seem to make sense to me,, but they have their aficionados

The thinking behind this I believe was that a valve power amp is as / more important in getting a great guitar tone than just a valve pre, especially if using pedals. Today there's a tendency for guitarists to get all of their sounds from before the power amp stage, yet most of the classic guitar sounds relied on valve power amps on full song. Having had a couple of Musicman guitar combos, I would agree that this design does make sense, but only if you can use them with the volume high enough to get the power amp valves working at a level where their sound reaches the 'sweet' spot. That's why a lot of die hards still use amps with no separate pre / master volume controls, going for all valve combos that can work at the levels they require onstage. Can work with bass amps too - Ampeg SVT3Pro has a valve front end and SS power amp - sounds good, but compared to a full fat SVT with all valve design and you can see why people still specify the 810/SVT rig for large gigs despite it being a 50 year old design.

[Shaggy]

10 hours ago, casapete said:

The thinking behind this I believe was that a valve power amp is as / more important in getting a great guitar tone than just a valve pre, especially if using pedals. Today there's a tendency for guitarists to get all of their sounds from before the power amp stage, yet most of the classic guitar sounds relied on valve power amps on full song. Having had a couple of Musicman guitar combos, I would agree that this design does make sense, but only if you can use them with the volume high enough to get the power amp valves working at a level where their sound reaches the 'sweet' spot. That's why a lot of die hards still use amps with no separate pre / master volume controls, going for all valve combos that can work at the levels they require onstage. Can work with bass amps too - Ampeg SVT3Pro has a valve front end and SS power amp - sounds good, but compared to a full fat SVT with all valve design and you can see why people still specify the 810/SVT rig for large gigs despite it being a 50 year old design.

Interesting, thanks casapete.   Makes a bit more sense now.   The guitarist in one of my old bands had an old Peavey combo with this configuration (Bandit?), and to be fair it had a lovely clean valvey tone, although as you say couldn't be pushed into overdrive in normal use - he eventually upgraded to a Mesa Boogie mk.V

 

[xgsjx]

With amp modelling, it’s easy to recreate the valve pre.  So this makes a valve pre is just a bit of bling (& there’s nothing wrong with a bit of bling). 

Amp modelling does struggle to create the sound of an output valve. They sound different to S/S amps (there’s nothing wrong with how S/S amps sound either). 

My choice would be a good amp modelling preamp pedal & a power amp. Not overly fussed if valve or S/S, as long as it sounded good.

If I were going for hybrid, I’d probably choose one with a valve power section rather than valve pre.  But, like is said above, get the amp you like the sound of & if that’s one with a valve pre, get it. 

I have an all valve amp just now & my previous amp was class D & no valves. Both have gotten compliments from other musicians. 

[foxyFuze]

This does chime with my very limited experience switching between pre and post valve power section on my old amp to see what the power section offered.

The inevitable question is, given how we have got behind modellers such as the HX Stomp, is "what is a suitable power amp to go for?"

[Al Krow]

What @xgsjx said all sounds very sensible, I agree.

Having said that, folk who use an amp with a quality valve pre + quality AB (or 'trans' class in the case of Mesa) power amp often rightly rave about what their amps are delivering. 

Three examples of much loved amps in this category would be the Mesa Walkabout, Mesa M6 and Aguilar DB751.

I have the middle one of these and tbh it has blown away every pure D class amp I've ever heard / played.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

Has anyone come across a really good valve (or for that matter SS) pre-amp pedal that mirrors what an actual amp valve pre is capable of delivering, as an alternative to amp modelling?

[chris_b]

Buy something that you like to listen to. That gives you the sound that makes you go, "Wow!!!"
There is a myth that valve is the "best" sound. It isn't, or they wouldn't have totally disappeared from pro touring PA systems and from most recording studios. They are just another method of creating a sound that is available to us as bass players.

In 25 years I've gone from a Mesa 400+, through SS and D class and none of them sounded any worse that the other. The Aguilar D class I'm using right now sounds better than most of the valve amps I heard when I was starting out. Most players can make even the best amp sound bad and make any amp sound good, if they know how to use the EQ. As has been said, don't get hung up on detail. Listen to the amp and then decide.

 

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Has anyone come across a really good valve (or for that matter SS) pre-amp pedal that mirrors what an actual amp valve pre is capable of delivering, as an alternative to amp modelling?

The nearest I’ve found that has that ‘spongey’ decay to the notes that only valve amps seem to have is the Tech21 VTDI. 

[Cuzzie]

There is practically nothing from the ‘old valve’ sound that can not be re-created or at least made with a minuscule on a circuit board, solid state etc.

[skidder652003]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Has anyone come across a really good valve (or for that matter SS) pre-amp pedal that mirrors what an actual amp valve pre is capable of delivering, as an alternative to amp modelling?

yep!

 

[Al Krow]

3 minutes ago, skidder652003 said:

yep!

Lol Steve, you gonna keep us all hanging while you go have some lunch? 😂

[Shaggy]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Has anyone come across a really good valve (or for that matter SS) pre-amp pedal that mirrors what an actual amp valve pre is capable of delivering, as an alternative to amp modelling?

Best one I've ever had was a Retrospec Juice box - foolishly traded, and I've never seen another since 

The Dave Hall VT-1 Purist currently FS (in "Musically related items....") is very decent, especially at that price - better for adding valve warmth than actual overdrive, and main thing against it is no balanced DI out.

[Cuzzie]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Has anyone come across a really good valve (or for that matter SS) pre-amp pedal that mirrors what an actual amp valve pre is capable of delivering, as an alternative to amp modelling?

Yes as well if you know what you are listening for and can combine effectively 

[skidder652003]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

Lol Steve, you gonna keep us all hanging while you go have some lunch? 😂

sorry! DHA VT EQ-2, DI out as well, used it in front of my Ampeg SVT, in front of my old peavey combo and as a stand alone straight into the desk, always sounds great and the 15db boost really gives it some welly. Theres a real added warmth rather than overdrive but that can be achieved easily by turning up the gain and/or overdrive

[rOB]

On 31/03/2019 at 14:07, Muzz said:

Oh, and the practicalities....

Could agree more with this point. I'd love to play through a huge all valve head but honestly the logistics would ruin the experience of playing music for me. Ymmv of course.