Ray Ross saddle-less bridge... anyone got one?

[Hellzero]

For those interested : https://rayrossbridge.com/

[mcnach]

On 30/04/2019 at 04:31, Guest ixlramp said:

Not necessarily, as that assumes the idea has been thought up, tried and rejected already. Some ideas are genuinely new. In fact, all ideas came into being at some point and were not around forever.

What you wrote can be used to discredit any idea, however good it is. Many people use this argument to discredit things they just don't like.

 

 

The thing is that unless it solves some kind of problem with existing designs or provides an obvious advantage, it's natural that people will be sceptical. 

Personally, I have no issues with any of the bridges on any of my instruments, so whatever 'improvements' are claimed, at the end of the day I am still "hmmm, but I am ok with what I've got". I'm not saying it's bad, I just don't see it as a significant improvement, just as another alternative, which is cool, although whether it's $158 cool... that I don't know. Certainly not for me. 

edit: and I really don't like the sharp corners.

edit 2: I haven't tried it, but it looks to me like palm muting may not be so easy with this bridge... which is ok if you never palm mute I suppose.

 

Edited August 27, 2020 by mcnach

[BlueMoon]

I think Bacchus put this bridge on a flagship handmade Woodline bass. Not sure if that's a ringing endorsement of confidence though.

If I were to buy a Bacchus I think I'd go for a conventional set up. Can't see the advantage, frankly.

[Blindbat]

Peace and prosperity 

Edited September 11, 2020 by Blindbat

[Jus Lukin]

-

Edited March 8, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[Steff]

Hey guys, I also managed to get hold of one - here’s my video on it - 

 

 

Steff 

[Steff]

On 27/08/2020 at 12:31, mcnach said:

 

edit: and I really don't like the sharp corners.

edit 2: I haven't tried it, but it looks to me like palm muting may not be so easy with this bridge... which is ok if you never palm mute I suppose.

 

Of course we’d be ok with regular bridges mate, they’re industry standard and just work. 
However from my recent experience the Ray Ross just brings that extra sound resolution, I can hear more frequencies, just a richer tone and more volume from my Ken Smith with the RR on. Check out the video above - I haven’t changed anything between the two recordings, same path, volume and so on. 
 

I didn’t feel that any edges are sharp, or are you talking from a visual point of view? 
 

As far as palm muting goes I find the Ray Ross to be more comfortable. My hand falls right in front of the pins, whereas with standard bridges it’s always over the saddles and I’ve always felt a slight discomfort from the saddle screws. 

[mcnach]

17 minutes ago, Steff said:

Of course we’d be ok with regular bridges mate, they’re industry standard and just work. 
However from my recent experience the Ray Ross just brings that extra sound resolution, I can hear more frequencies, just a richer tone and more volume from my Ken Smith with the RR on. Check out the video above - I haven’t changed anything between the two recordings, same path, volume and so on. 
 

I didn’t feel that any edges are sharp, or are you talking from a visual point of view? 
 

As far as palm muting goes I find the Ray Ross to be more comfortable. My hand falls right in front of the pins, whereas with standard bridges it’s always over the saddles and I’ve always felt a slight discomfort from the saddle screws. 

 

Hi Steff! Long time no seen!

Yeah, my comments about sharp edges/corners is purely my visual impression as I never have had one in my hands. Same about the pins, they *look* to me like they would not be comfy but I defer to the experience of those who have actually managed to try one.

I'm always a little sceptical about these things, but that was a nice video! Often demo videos show the bass in isolation, but you were playing along a mix, and yup, the clips with the new bridge do sound as if the bass is a bit better defined with better presence especially around the low mids, can't argue with that!

 

 

[Steff]

Thank you mate, it’s been a while indeed! 
 

Right I understand - different designs appeal to us in a different way. 
The pins aren’t, at least to me, uncomfortable in any way. 
 

Stole the words from my mouth - that’s exactly what I’m hearing from this bridge. I was ready to sell my Smith mostly because I hated its slap sound, but with the added low mid focus I now love it and I’m keeping it! I also really like the improvement in the high mids, and whereas I usually cut them, in this case they just made the bass sound richer. 

[BigRedX]

Interesting video, although with the bass in its proper place in the mix I don't think the differences would be anything like as noticeable.

Some things occur to me:

1. If the benefits are down to stopping vibrations outside of the speaking length of the string, then surely a more conventional bridge with a mechanism to clamp the strings at the saddle would be just as effective and would have the advantage of removing the non-uniform unit mass portions of the string from the speaking length (the bits where the windings go thicker to allow the attachment of the ball ends).

2. And as has already been said, also clamping the strings in place at the nut should make additional improvements.

3. @Steff did you go back to your original Smith bridge after trying this new one? For proper scientific methodology you need to check that simply the act of removing and re-attaching the original parts doesn't also make a difference.

[Steff]

Thanks for the comment mate. To address: 

1. I think we’re talking about removing the “outside length” rather than isolating it. As far as I could understand, the difference comes from the strings not having a “dampening point” and a breaking point in the face of a saddle, where the contact wouldn’t be considered as a part of the string unlike with the RR where the string is held by its barrel only. Clamping the string at the saddle will still hold its outer wind and not the core as the barrel does. 
 

Apparently the bulge at the end of the string doesn’t worsen things - I’ll try to find the article by the guy who researched that and actually came up with strings that have a specific thickening right there at the base which he claimed brings other benefits too. The only reason I haven’t tried those yet is because I destroy anything but Elixir in 3-4 hours of playing, but I might contact them and do a video for the channel. 
 

2. Again I’m not sure how the clamping by the outer winds at either end would affect the sound - this should be checked really. I think there was some basses with a clamp at the nut - if anybody has one it’ll be interesting to see what’s the difference with the clamp on and off. 
 

3. Yes I did mate - this is how it went: 

Put the RR with the old strings on (Elixir with some life in them, although compromised as they had the bend at the bridge from the Smith saddles) - audible difference. 
Then I put a fresh set on, recorded the video bits with RR, removed it and put back the Smith stock bridge to record that - again audible difference. 
If I was using standard strings I would have been worried about string wear between the takes but with Elixir there’s no such issue for months. 

[Steff]

To address your other point - yes you’re right, I should have put a few bars just playing along a click but I didn’t think of it, because for me the difference was still noticeable. I thought that it’s better to put it in a mix in order to have a volume point of reference, but you’re right - playing it on its own would have shown the frequency difference better. 
 

I’m having a bass built for me at the moment, which will have the Ray Ross on - when it’s ready I’ll record a video on its own, I’ll find a standard bridge to compare it to. 
 

Edit: sorry I just realised I’ve misunderstood your point. 
 

I would disagree here mate. The increase in the low mids to me is very important, also the one in the high mids - when playing live, I hear my bass very well and can tell the difference. For the same reason I have a love/hate relationship with Elixir strings - the trade off for the long life is something like a 10% decrease in the sound resolution across the frequency range and I personally hear that. So, you add 10% here, 10% there and things start racking up and making a difference. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Steff

[itu]

2 hours ago, Steff said:

Apparently the bulge at the end of the string doesn’t worsen things - I’ll try to find the article by the guy who researched that and actually came up with strings that have a specific thickening right there at the base which he claimed brings other benefits too.

If the string ends are not uniform you should fine tune the scale every time you change the strings. If the strings would be non-uniform you would need to tune the neck - the frets - for the string. Latter is possible, like with old lutes but I doubt that no one would want to turn back time that much.

The bridge may be lighter, or it may have rounded corners, but the system is not complete without special strings, which may have special price and limited availability. So far I see mostly sales arguments, but it would be really nice to hear some true benefits to the player and the bass.

[Steff]

Umm... I’m not sure what you mean mate. It feels, seems and sounds quite complete to me, especially after I’ve tried it and have the results recorded. Maybe there would be a benefit from specially designed strings, but that doesn’t make it incomplete. 
After comparing it to the stock bridge, there’s nothing incomplete about it and I’d never go back to stock, just because I can hear the results quite clearly. But hey, if based on your assumptions, because it doesn’t sound like you’ve actually tried one, you find it incomplete, who am I to argue 😂

[Steff]

22 minutes ago, itu said:

 So far I see mostly sales arguments, but it would be really nice to hear some true benefits to the player and the bass.

Did you actually watch my video? 

[BigRedX]

The problem I have with allowing the thicker part of the string into the speaking length is it means the unit mass of the string is not constant for every length which will affect the intonation. I've experienced this effect (in the opposite direction) with taper wound strings where the full thickness winding does not start immediately after the saddle. I realise that we are talking tiny amounts here, but the difference in tone is also relatively small, so it's going to be a compromise between accurate tuning above the 12th fret and how important those tonal "improvements" really are. Personally I couldn't hear anything that a good parametric EQ couldn't have duplicated in the context of a full band mix with the bass guitar sitting in it's appropriate sonic and volume space.

[Steff]

I understand - indeed if I sat down with a Peq I could replicate the sound difference, however in my personal preference I’d rather have that naturally from the bass without the need to dial it in, I like when little things contribute to my sound. 
 

Did you hear any intonation issues in my video? I didn’t. True that there’s no notes above 12th fret there, but I did play high when I had the bridge and I personally didn’t hear the slightest intonation problem after I adjusted it. I’ll try to record something when I put it on my new bass. See here we are debating on a potential problem that you think might exist... but which I personally haven’t experienced, having tested the bridge. If I had issues with intonation, I wouldn’t want this bridge, why would I limit half of my bass’ range lol... 

So to me it’s only gains so far and no negatives, and trust me mate I’m very picky about precision, if there was anything that was bothering me, I would have addressed it. 
 

I think it’s my fault that I wasn’t able to show the differences as well as I hear them but let me tell you this - my Ken Smith was nearly a goner before the RR bridge, after I’ve heard it with RR - it’s definitely a keeper. To me that’s a difference significant enough. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Steff

[BigRedX]

I play a lot of dual string drone/melody bass lines and so I am very sensitive to intonation issues.

Also none of the high notes you played had a long enough duration for the micro-tuning problems to be really noticeable. It's a lot more obvious when you are playing sustained chords.

Besides for me it's all academic as none of the basses I use would be able to utilise this bridge for either construction and/or string-spacing reasons.

[Steff]

Fair enough mate, valid arguments. When I have it on again, I’ll test it the way you suggest and report   I’m also curious to check if it has an issue in that department. 

[itu]

3 hours ago, Steff said:

Did you actually watch my video? 

Yes, I did. Because the audio track includes lots of stuff, it is not clear to hear any difference. I am more accustomed to ABX testing since I studied acoustics. YT videos are basically coded audio, which is not the best source for comparison.

I do admit, that it is somewhat complicated to produce comparable results in home environment. Strings, playing techniques, audio levels etc. are not easy to normalize. Any processing may hide or enhance subtle details. It is also very important to try to eliminate subjective opinions in these tests.

If you are after results that are not objective, then it is another story. It is pretty easy to hear stuff you want to hear. Change new strings to your bass and it sounds a totally different instrument than it was a while ago. Yes, it sounds different, but is it really that different after few hours of playing (I change strings up to four times a year)?

[Steff]

Fair enough mate - I personally can hear a difference, and I’m definitely not after results that are not there. 
If you like to, drop me a message with your email address and I will send you the wav files of the bass only as I’ve recorded them. 

[itu]

And yes, there can be an audible and functional difference. It is possible, and if the system gives you any advantage in producing your sound, this invention may be your key to the stars. We do not have to rely on Leo's 70 year old cheapo sheet metal solutions.

[Steff]

Oh absolutely man. Whatever does it for me, wouldn’t necessarily work for everyone else. 
 

I don’t mind having a discussion about it, I would just prefer if both for and against sides have an actual experience with the product, then it’s a fair argument. Without trying, everything is based on assumptions. 

[Steff]

2 hours ago, itu said:

 

I do admit, that it is somewhat complicated to produce comparable results in home environment. Strings, playing techniques, audio levels etc. are not easy to normalize. Any processing may hide or enhance subtle details. It is also very important to try to eliminate subjective opinions in these tests.

I did try to keep those conditions the same to the best of my ability, I know the track well and did my best to play applying the same force and dynamics, I haven’t changed anything on the recording path - input gain, compressor, channel volume are the same for both tracks. Strings are a new set of Elixir, the brand I’ve been using for 15 years and I know their durability very well - there would have been zero sound change between the takes all taken within half an hour. 

[Steff]

Here’s another one guys - this time on my 55-94 Lakland