Collecting Basses/Guitars as an investment

[StuarDaddy]

Just curious to see if anyone here actually collects or stockpiles vintage, rare or ones they think are gonna be collectors pieces as a future investment. The idea of it sort of screams sacrilege but them my sensible 41 year old head thinks hmm if i invest in them i get the pleasure of looking at them and playing them until the day comes to sell them on. It a moral dilemma i suppose.

[cetera]

I've got 70+ instruments. I didn't buy them as investments, I bought them because I wanted them and enjoy playing them/owning them.... but I guess a significant number of them are a nice nest egg for the future

Edited April 2, 2019 by cetera

[BreadBin]

Much like old cars, it's very difficult to predict what will be a secure investment.

30 years ago early 70s Fenders weren't that valuable whereas Gibsons were much more popular. Now the reverse is true.

[Soledad]

Part of me frowns on it, the other part sees absolute sense. I collect Swiss watches, so why not instruments?
With super-low interest rates, volatile stock markets heading towards another top-out, taxation on pension incomes, etc etc - having a folio of objects that grow in real terms is very smart. Tax free returns, plus the benefit of actually enjoying while you have them (a la Cetera).

[chris_b]

To make collecting anything make money for you you either have to be in at the start, very knowledgeable or very lucky.

Casual collectors are usually none of those things and are just fans accumulating stuff they like. None of which is going to make them rich. Your initial outlay will tie up a lot of your cash and you'll have to invest a lot to get back peanuts.

Modern high volume manufacturing methods will probably ensure that none of today's basses will increase in value like pre-CBS Fenders or Wal basses. I don't see any basses, even the custom builds, making any money in a collectable sense.

[Cato]

I suspect that with the number of guitar/bass players generally in decline and guitar based music becoming less popular that the number of people interested in buying vintage/collectable instruments will eventually start to gradually decline as will their value.

Instruments associated with specific historically important artists like Hendrix or the Beatles will probably always be desirable, but my guess is that the value of things like pre CBS Fenders is probably going to peak at some point in the next 20 years then begin to fall as the generations for whom such objects hold the most cultural significance diminish.

 

Edited April 2, 2019 by Cato

[mentalextra]

Interesting subject. Would a bass ever be too rare and/or valuable to use regularly i wonder?

[Delberthot]

15 minutes ago, mentalextra said:

Interesting subject. Would a bass ever be too rare and/or valuable to use regularly i wonder?

Not rare or valuable in the grand scheme of things but I actually sold my 30th Anniversary Musicman Stingray 4 string because it was such a thing of beauty that I was terrified of damaging it or even using it.

[SubsonicSimpleton]

One important factor here is what is driving the prices up at the moment?

I might be wrong about this totally, but for the most part it would seem that the primary market for expensive vintage/collectors instruments is mostly middle aged and older people with money - if you want to offload a bunch of expensive instruments, what happens if all the old farts are needing to sell off their collections to fund living expenses and the younger generation are either too skint, or not that interested (on the basis that music tech has moved on, and their musical heroes don't have the same associations with certain instruments in the same way that someone growing up in the 50/60/70s would have witnessed but been largely unable to afford at the time).

If you are a famous old fart with a large instrument collection like Geddy Lee or Joe Bonamassa, then the celebrity association inherently adds value and desirability, but if you are joe public then I'm not so sure.

[casapete]

2 minutes ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

One important factor here is what is driving the prices up at the moment?

I might be wrong about this totally, but for the most part it would seem that the primary market for expensive vintage/collectors instruments is mostly middle aged and older people with money - if you want to offload a bunch of expensive instruments, what happens if all the old farts are needing to sell off their collections to fund living expenses and the younger generation are either too skint, or not that interested (on the basis that music tech has moved on, and their musical heroes don't have the same associations with certain instruments in the same way that someone growing up in the 50/60/70s would have witnessed but been largely unable to afford at the time).

If you are a famous old fart with a large instrument collection like Geddy Lee or Joe Bonamassa, then the celebrity association inherently adds value and desirability, but if you are joe public then I'm not so sure.

Interesting post. I think that there are enough people left in the market who want and will pay for vintage stuff (50's/60's mainly), but as pointed out there is probably a finite amount of time before they drop off their perches. Whether their successive generation continue to hold dear the quest for such instruments is the burning question I guess. Just hope that I live long enough to be able to afford a 50's Tele....😕

[stingrayPete1977]

It's very hard to judge Imo, the comparison with old cars is the closest we've got to compare with in cultural and time scale, the same thing was said thirty years ago about really old stuff 'veteran' as it's now called, people thought once no one had living memory of those cars the value would drop quickly over a ten to twenty year period, who thought the guy with the Sierra with a body kit and massive turbo during the 90s would be into cars from the Edwardian period within a couple of decades? But it happened, prices have gone mental. 

Look at antiques that don't do anything useful like paintings or items rarely used like ink Wells and hat pins, plenty of people still collect them just to have on show, which for many 70's Fenders is about all they are good for anyway, lol. 

[Soledad]

1 hour ago, SubsonicSimpleton said:

it would seem that the primary market for expensive vintage/collectors instruments is mostly middle aged and older people with money

absolutely right I think. I used to be actively into classic cars, and you can tell who's buying by the period of cars peaking. If you grew up lusting over an E Type, you'll buy one in your 50s or with your retirement pot. The money is in the buyers who are typically 50s - 60s. So work back to what they grew up lusting for and you are currently back to say 70s/ early 80s. In 15 years time it will likely be different.
 

[thodrik]

Back when I was younger (circa 1998) you could buy a 1970s Fender Jazz or Precision for less than a 'new' American Standard equivalent. This was on the basis that 1970s were not that desirable as the quality control varied greatly from bass to bass. Now the same basses are going for much more than than American 'Professional' equivalent. So my 'non-desirable' late 70s Precision has probably doubled in value, despite actually being in worse condition than when I bought it given I have been playing it every day for twenty years. Same with my 1974 Gibson EB3, which is a great investment but generally sounds like mud.

It is difficult to anticipate what will be a 'great' investment. Given what happened to me by accident, buying Fenders and Gibsons which are about 25-30 years old (so late 80s to early 1990s) might be a good investment over the long term as: (a) they don't command 'vintage' prices but in a few years they will be classed as 'vintage' Fender as they will be 35 years old and will be a good entry point for people who want a vintage Fender but have been priced out of the 1960s and 1970s markets. The returns here though will not be immediate, not be guaranteed and in will not be that great compared to buying an 1970s Les Paul, putting it in a case for ten years and then selling it on.

However the big returns are from buy something for relatively cheap which in the future becomes highly desirable. My other query is whether a lot of the 'boutique' bass builders' creations will result in the instruments becoming highly valuable. So for example, will the value of NYC Sadowsky/Fodera/Vigier/insert custom builder be more valuable when the head luthiers retire? Or will these boutique companies actually become less desirable as other 'new' boutique builders take their place? My bet would be on them being more valuable (look at the price of old Wals!) but you never know. 

If I was a serious 'for profit' collector I would probably focus more on vintage guitars (Les Pauls and Teles) and guitar amps (1970s Fenders and Marshalls) rather than basses which is always going to be more of a niche market. 

[StuarDaddy]

3 hours ago, mentalextra said:

Interesting subject. Would a bass ever be too rare and/or valuable to use regularly i wonder?

I used to record with a 53/54 Precision old tele shape that Andy McCluskey from OMD owns. its the 905th guitar fender made. God knows what its worth but it sounded incredible. Its the actual one on the cover of this.....

[StuarDaddy]

Massive minefield but i think its very unpredictable as a few of you have said. Ive had a 73 Jazz for 13 years and its probably worth double what i paid now but i can't see it being worth more than that really. Also had a 83 I think JV Jazz that cost 200 quid 15 years ago and now they're sill money. 

[Deedee]

21 minutes ago, thodrik said:

Back when I was younger (circa 1998) you could buy a 1970s Fender Jazz or Precision for less than a 'new' American Standard equivalent. This was on the basis that 1970s were not that desirable as the quality control varied greatly from bass to bass. Now the same basses are going for much more than than American 'Professional' equivalent. So my 'non-desirable' late 70s Precision has probably doubled in value, despite actually being in worse condition than when I bought it given I have been playing it every day for twenty years. 

I've often pondered this myself. Throughout the 90's I too was led to believe by many people that 70's and early 80's Fender guitars and basses weren't worth the proverbial as throughout that time the company was constantly battling to cut costs due to ever mounting financial pressures (3 bolt neck plates were always cited as one example of this).   

Perhaps it was a conspiracy so they could buy them all up for themselves 😏 

[police squad]

Someone on the tv said, 'don't buy it as an investment, buy it because you love it. If you love it, someone else will'

I think this is a good philosophy.  I have several old guitars and basses and I love them. They are all very good instruments in their own right. It helps when coming to sell them. I have played many vintage gibsons and fenders that were average at best. I wouldn't touch them with a barge pole. Some people would pay silly money but a great guitar will always sell.

I bought a 1989 PRS custom 24 signature series (hand signed and numbered by Paul) 13 years ago. I paid 1500 quid. I admit I bought it unseen on ebay as an investment. 1500 was dirt cheap but actually I was lucky. It is a fab instrument. 

I have several instruments worth much more than I paid for them. A lovely nest egg for when I retire.  But I still play them down the boozer when I can 

[Skol303]

There are far more profitable things to invest in than guitars. And you could use the profit you make from better investments to buy... nice guitars 🙂

But if you need an excuse to justify an ever-expanding guitar collection to your significant other, then crack on. As you were. Mum's the word.

[thodrik]

On 02/04/2019 at 15:45, Deedee said:

I've often pondered this myself. Throughout the 90's I too was led to believe by many people that 70's and early 80's Fender guitars and basses weren't worth the proverbial as throughout that time the company was constantly battling to cut costs due to ever mounting financial pressures (3 bolt neck plates were always cited as one example of this).   

Perhaps it was a conspiracy so they could buy them all up for themselves 😏 

Perhaps, it is also amazing that every single 70s Fender for sale now is marketed as being 'one of the good ones'!

My one wasn't good to start with. The wiring was crap and had to be re-soldered The wiring was so bad one of the previous owners had cut the scratchplate to provide for 'easier access' to the jack socket! The neck had also been installed at the wrong angle, so the break angle at the bridge was just wrong. It many years of my playing and setting it up to get it in the playing condition it is now (I love it). It makes me think, 'are the good vintage basses actually good basses, or are they just standard basses owned by owners and players who took care into making sure the bass had a decent set up?

[sammybee]

Was advised by my accountant many years ago about buying "stuff" (applies to basses). If you can afford it, want it - then buy it and enjoy it, But it's not an true investment..

[gjones]

Even if the price of your old bass merely keeps up with inflation, it's better than putting your cash in the bank.

Alternatively you could invest your cash in porkbellys (whatever they are).

[Johnny Wishbone]

1 hour ago, gjones said:

Alternatively you could invest your cash in porkbellys (whatever they are).

What about frozen concentrated orange juice?

[Soledad]

7 hours ago, Skol303 said:

here are far more profitable things to invest in than guitars.

The obvious question is what then? I've come to accept the obvious that reward is proportionate to risk. If a high reward low risk suddenly appears it's either a con, or it will rise almost instantly to a value/cost level reflecting the low risk - there is no such thing as cheap high returns without commensurate risk.

I believe there is a very strong argument for making a part of an 'investment portfolio' quality objects of some scarcity. Obviously you have to know your subject and many here know their basses. I think you also have to take a medium to long term view. If you know what to pick, and factor in the tax efficiency, and then add in a component for the pleasure of ownership and/or use - a small collection of fine basses makes as much sense as any other scarce and desirable item.

This probably isn't what a 'financial adviser' would ever tell us, but they're the people who tell you to be in the market long term, and to diversify - I can't tell you what I think of that advice without swearing quite a lot.

Enjoy them basses 👍

Edited April 4, 2019 by Soledad

[NancyJohnson]

About 30 years ago, I discussed the collecting/storage/reselling of instruments with my dad; on retirement he had a tidy nest-egg from something he'd invested in and did ask me whether guitars would be a good route to throw money at.

Even back then, you knew the stuff that was going to appreciate; old Fender Jazz basses, Les Paul Juniors, old Les Pauls and Stratocasters, things with known provenance etc.  but conversely I don't think my dad really had the inclination to store a load of instruments on the off chance they'd turn a profit.  As things stood, my dad died about a year after he retired, everything passed to my mother and my dreams of being able to dip into a lock up full of vintage guitars died with him.

Moving forward, in 1999, on my first trip to New York, I remember seeing a load of 60s/70s Jazz basses (a job lot from a recently deceased NY session player) in a store opposite Manny's and these were selling from $700 - $1,200.  Certainly the 60s stuff would by now easily have tripled/quadrupled in value (or saleable value), but I could neither afford to bring any of these back, nor would I have had any inclination to hang onto them for 20 years to see that return.  It would have just been about quick wins.

I suppose my position right now is such that I have three very nice, rareish basses (Lulls/Hamer) that would likely sell for £2-3K a pop should there be a buyer out there for them, but this is well under what I paid for the Lulls (50% under), although the Hamer would be a winner; but I bought these to play them, not leave them in a case in the off chance they'll appreciate in value.  Cab-wise, I have Alex/Barefaced first/prototype cabinet, but nobody is interested in backline from a value/investment perspective; it's probably worth more to Alex than it is to anyone else.  Let's just say I'm looking after it for him.

[sammybee]

17 hours ago, Soledad said:

The obvious question is what then?

Drugs!