Drum machines - what are you using?

[Kiwi]

1 hour ago, BigRedX said:

To me that sounds more like a limitation of your chosen DAW and/or computer. 

It's possible yes.  I started with Cubase back in the 90's and that was fine for both MIDI and audio, then I moved to Pro Tools and it was a PITA for MIDI.  Currently waiting in the wings are Audacity and good ol' workhorse Ableton but it seems like a number of PC based DAWs have limitations of one sort or another.  Which is yet another tick in the column for hardware based solutions.

[SumOne]

It depends on how people like to work, lots of people just use software, lots of people like to just use hardware. Personally, I find something in-between is ideal, the MPC is much more fun and intuative for me to do finger-drumming and altering parameters via knobs and touchscreen and live dubbing and DJ effects sort of stuff. It feels more like DJing or playing an instrument than programming. But it ocasionally is best if combined with a computer to download/ organise samples and finish tunes. 

 

I've found Computers and software to become redundant just as fast - if not faster than hardware. My friend still has an MC 505 from the mid 90s that works fine, turn it on and it still does what it did 25 years ago. I doubt very much that is the case with many people with a Computer and DAW from then, they seem to last me about 3 years before trouble starts and the faff of just getting everything working takes the fun out of it., there always seems to be some new OS update or DAW update that messes with stuff and needs a faff to get things like midi controls re-mapped. 

 

And a decent enough Computer + DAW isn't exactly cheap, iMac or Macbook (approx £1300+) + Logic Pro (£200) + some sort of hardware interface (£200) is about 3x the cost of an MPC one. I tried to sell my 10 year old Macbook Pro with Logic a while ago and the shop didn't want to offer anything, it wasn't worth their while to even bother as it's worth so little now whereas a things like 20+ year old  MPC 2000 still goes for at least £650 second hand.

Edited February 22, 2023 by SumOne

[Kiwi]

If I had the space, I would be reacquainting myself with a full electronic kit but needs must with the drum machine.  It's also hard to punch in when I'm also playing. 

[BigRedX]

It does very much depend on how you look at things. 

 

From a music PoV my computers are essentially free as I needed them anyway for my day job. Even so, over the past 15 years I think they've only cost me around £3k - thats £200 a year (although that does take into account what I have made selling off the old models when I've upgraded). On top of that I've paid an additional £400 for Logic, a controller keyboard and the Simmons drum plug-in. All the other music hardware is part of my live rig and was bought first and foremost for the purpose of gigging. 

 

Because I work "in the box" and have made a decision to stick mainly to what comes free with Logic, my system never becomes obsolete. My current set up will continue to function until the Mac has a terminal problem, at which point I'll probably upgrade to a Mac Studio or similar. The cost of the computer will be absorbed by my business, so by biggest expense will be when I need to buy the next version of Logic. When that happens my current projects will load straight into the new version and continue to sound exactly the same as they did before I upgraded (as has happened the last two times I upgraded).

 

There's an assumption that hardware never become obsolete, which may be true, but unfortunately there will come a point one day when it will cease to function for no apparent reason at which point you will normally find that it has become impossible or too expensive to be worth repairing and that there is no modern equivalent that sounds the same and is able to load your data from your old device. There's nothing more obsolete that that! And I have discovered this the hard way.

 

Out of interest to everyone using a hardware drum machine how are you backing up your user data (sounds and rhythm patterns)? Do you have a strategy for what to do should your current drum machine suffer a terminal fault?

[SumOne]

^^^

Isn't going onto a Drum Machine thread and saying why you don't use drum machines and why other shouldn't the equivilant of going onto the Effects forum and saying why Effects pedals aren't needed (a hangable trolling offence on Talkbass!) . 😉

 

I get where you're coming from, but there continues to be quite a big market from hardware drum machines. There are pros and cons to either method.  I guess all those people using hardware could be wrong, or perhaps they are in different situations and people like doing things in differernt ways.

 

As far as backup, the MPC One comes with a DAW so I do have finished tunes saved on the Laptop. And all samples are on the Laptop. If the MPC dies I would lose quite a bit of work in progress though. But then again, I had a Macbook just die on me once, I had an external hard drive but couldn't ever get things to work properly on the next Macbook which cost me over £1k (I'm not in a situation where work will pay) and I had to buy a newer £200 version of Logic to go with it as the old one was pretty much obsolete and on CD. So that was about £1,200 of hardware failure. 

 

 

[SumOne]

@Kiwianother one worth considering is the Elektron Samples. Not as good as the MPC One but half the price. It's pretty good and has some quite decent ways of adding 'randomness' to quantized beats.

[BigRedX]

If you'd read through all my contributions to this thread from the start you see that I'm a previous drum machine user, and right up to a point about 2 years ago was seriously contemplating buying either an MPC or a Roland TR8S to replace the drummer from one of my bands who had decided to leave. It was a combination of reading others contributions to this thread and the fact that our synth player had invested in a copy of Logic and was doing all of his composing for our new songs using it, they swayed me to forget the idea and stick with using the Mac and Logic for my rhythmic needs.

 

I asked about backups because they have always formed an important part of my work, and it's never been so easy to back up your data as it is on a Mac. I have an on-going Time-Machine backup of all my data both work and music as well a system that also updates my files to a secure cloud location every night, and that's not withstanding the fact that all the files that I use for playing live exist on two different computers. Were may main Mac have a terminal problem I would be back up and running within a day a getting a replacement. IMO anyone who loses data through not having an adequate backup strategy only has themselves to blame.

 

Back when I first started using programmable drum machines in the early 80s the only way to back up your rhythm patterns and sounds was to write them down. Somewhere I still have a huge folder full photocopied sheets with TR808 patterns and voice settings written down for every song we were doing. Back then this kind of back up was essential since the 808 only held a single song at a time , and even if it had been capable of storing more than one song, you'd run out of patterns long before you had a whole set programmed in. Even it's replacement, a Yamaha DX11, was only slightly better and had a cassette interface for storing the data, it still wasn't possible to fit a whole set's worth of drum parts unless you songs were rhythmically very simple. And of course the tape backup was only usable with another identical drum machine. A least with the written down 808 patterns you could use them to get your rhythms into another drum machine even if the sounds weren't the same. The way that I see it with modern drum machines is if your having to use a computer to do your backupstehn you might as well use you computer as a drum machine in the first place.

Edited February 22, 2023 by BigRedX

[sammybee]

46 minutes ago, SumOne said:

^^^

Isn't going onto a Drum Machine thread and saying why you don't use drum machines and why other shouldn't the equivilant of going onto the Effects forum and saying why Effects pedals aren't needed (a hangable trolling offence on Talkbass!) . 😉

 

I get where you're coming from, but there continues to be quite a big market from hardware drum machines. There are pros and cons to either method.  I guess all those people using hardware could be wrong, or perhaps they are in different situations and people like doing things in differernt ways.

I think we are all wrong, and the 50k members of the MPC forums on FB are too  Anybody want to buy an MPC Live & an MPC 2000xl - I'll consider myself schooled!

[SumOne]

I'm eyeing up the MPC Keys 61, haven't quite convinced myself that it's worth the extra ££ from using the MPC One with a midi keyboard....nearly there though!

 

MPC One £630 + Midi Keyboard £200 +  MPC instrument collection plugins £350 = £1,180

MPC Key 61 = £1,480

 

The Key 61 also gets a few things like more internal storage (32GB vs 4GB), more ins/outs, more hardware knobs and buttons and touch strip control, some in-built extras to map the keys. I'm not sure if that justifies the £300 extra between MC One + Midi keyboard + Pugins, but a quick, enjoyable, tactile, reliable workflow is certainly worth ££ to me (it's basically why I'm using hardware rather a Laptop). 

 

 

.......although as far as this thread goes, this is straying quite a long way from what would usually be classed as a drum machine! 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2023 by SumOne

[Baloney Balderdash]

Reaper/Midi and EZDrummer 2.

 

For electronic music, if I want a more electronic/less realistic/authentic drum sound, I often also use Reason 5, though including some external 3rd party drum samples.

 

Hardware for playing/recording the drums, in those cases where I'd rather do that than program them: a M-Audio Oxygen Pro 49 Midi keyboard that features weighted keys as well as drum pads.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[SumOne]

1 hour ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Reaper/Midi and EZDrummer 2.

 

 

 

This is one of the things that puts me off with software: It was only after I bought EZDrummer 2 that I realised it doesn't have a grid editor ('superior drummer' needed for that), clearly they thought it was lacking as they have released EZ Drummer 3 which includes grid editor, but it'll cost €99 to upgrade. I suppose that's fair enough, but it just feels like buying software/updates etc never ends, everything sort of follows a paid update/subscription model. 

 

On a related note, the new subscrition model of 'Waves' plugins looks like it's really P!$$ed off its existing customers:  

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by SumOne

[Baloney Balderdash]

29 minutes ago, SumOne said:

 

This is one of the things that puts me off with software: It was only after I bought EZDrummer 2 that I realised it doesn't have a grid editor ('superior drummer' needed for that), clearly they thought it was lacking as they have released EZ Drummer 3 which includes grid editor, but it'll cost €99 to upgrade. I suppose that's fair enough, but it just feels like buying software/updates etc never ends, everything sort of follows a paid update/subscription model.

 

On a related note, the new subscrition model of 'Waves' plugins looks like it's really P!$$ed off its existing customers:  

 

Very unlike  Reaper, where the creator, bar a slight 5 seconds to get access annoyance (no commercials in that time span though) after the initial trial period, offers a fully functioning, full featured, amazing music creating tool and DAW completely for free, including full free access to all updates, and being exactly just as great as any of the commercial offerings on the market if you ask me.

 

Unfortunately however, to my knowledge, there are really no such alternative when it comes to great drum VST's.

 

That said I don't miss an EZDrummer grid editor.

 

Edited March 29, 2023 by Baloney Balderdash

[SumOne]

18 minutes ago, Baloney Balderdash said:

Very unlike  Reaper, where the creator, bar a slight 5 seconds to get access annoyance (no commercials in that time span though) after the initial trial period, offers a fully functioning, full featured, amazing music creating tool and DAW completely for free, including full free access to all updates, and being exactly just as great as any of the commercial offerings if you ask me.

 

Unfortunately however not really such alternative when it comes to great drum VST's to my knowledge.

 

That said I don't miss an EZDrummer grid editor.

 

 

You're right, yes- Reaper is great for that. Having used just about all the major DAWs it's the only one I use now.

[BigRedX]

One of the advantages of using the drum kit/drum machine plug-in that come with your DAW is that it integrates properly with the rest of the interface, and it updates automatically with the rest of your DAW.

[bartelby]

3 hours ago, SumOne said:

 

 

On a related note, the new subscrition model of 'Waves' plugins looks like it's really P!$$ed off its existing customers:  

 

 

 

They've kind of changed their minds now:

https://www.waves.com/news/perpetual-waves-licenses-are-back?fbclid=IwAR0VxNnxXkVVyIKtpH5oN-BNvStjczUa1iZ4f1_Zb2uTkHo3giMH_OgVUbw

"Following your feedback, we are bringing back the option to purchase and update perpetual Waves plugin and bundle licenses, side-by-side with the new Waves Creative Access subscriptions. "

 

[Al Krow]

I see that the MPC One Plus is out, although not feeling any particular pressure to upgrade!

 

Are any of you Akai MPC users managing to make use of your kit in live performance? If so, would love to see any clips if you have them.

 

Edited August 19, 2023 by Al Krow

[SumOne]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

I see that the MPC One Plus is out, although not feeling any particular pressure to upgrade!

 

Are any of you Akai MPC users managing to make use of your kit in live performance? If so, would love to see any clips if you have them.

 

 

Yeah, isn't much of an upgrade. I have the MPC Keys and don't find the Wifi/Bluetooth particularly useful. More internal storage is handy bit there is the external option. 

 

I'm itching to use it live but am in a 9 piece with a keyboard player so it'd definitely be overkill! 

[sammybee]

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I see that the MPC One Plus is out, although not feeling any particular pressure to upgrade!

 

Are any of you Akai MPC users managing to make use of your kit in live performance? If so, would love to see any clips if you have them.

 

 

Struggling to see what the 'upgrade' features are - apart from the name  

[SumOne]

MIDI Drums Question: I have a lot of MIDI Drum files , but when dragged directly into EZ Drummer 2 they do not map to the expected drum sounds. So it's a time consuming process to properly map them.

 

Unless all the files I have are incorrectly labelled  (which is unlikely as the are from different sources) then it seems there's something I'm doing wrong. Any ideas?

 

Perhaps something needs needs changing on EZ Drummer settings, to put them on MIDI Channel 10 for it to correctly Map? https://www.pgmusic.com/tutorial_gm.htm 

 

 

[2pods]

It's maybe more that they're using a custom midi map ?

 

I made that mistake in the early days of Cubase, using a map that was convenient for playing in notes from the keyboard (Roland U20), and  drum machine (Think it was a Roland R8). 

 

Years later, they're unplayable as I can't find the midi map I used.

[BigRedX]

Most likely a custom drum map. Which DAW are you using? On that has it's roots in MIDI sequencing rather than audio recording should have tools to automatically re-map the MIDI notes of your files to the ones that you want.

 

Also there's nothing inherently special about MIDI Channel 10 for drums. This is a legacy hangover from the first Roland drum machines with MIDI which defaulted to MIDI Channel 10, and that default became baked into the GM spec. In fact, if you are using MIDI hardware it would be better to have drums on MIDI Channel 1 as they get processed first. If you're working in the box MIDI channel number shouldn't matter.

 

When I first switched to using a DAW all my drums were assigned in a way that made sense for how I programmed my drums and the drum playback device was set to MIDI Channel 1 on MIDI output 1 of my interface. These days because I work entirely within Logic, the MIDI channel is irrelevant and I use the Logic drum assignments because they are already labelled in the grid editor and changing they would be far too much hassle.

[SumOne]

^^^

Thanks, I'll look into figuring out how they've been MIDI mapped. The thing that struck me as odd is that none of them automatically assign over as expected, so either all of the files I've got (from quite a few different sources) have been customised, or something I've got set in EZ Drummer or my DAW (Reaper) is messing with them. None of the files have any text documents to say how they have been mapped, so I've assumed they've used some sort of standardised mapping.