two new ideas, thoughts on brass or no brass?

[funkgod]

Hi all im just working on these two, all done in the mancave, so go easy on me as they are still being edited etc but feel the ideas are there.

first one im trying to capture that early 90s incognito m-people feel but am now thinking of adding some brass stabs toward the end, at 3:58ish would it kill it ?

https://soundcloud.com/mr-funky-7/attitude-1/s-n46Tr

2nd one im trying to create that cool house groove thing, something abit more uptodate, i wanted to keep it radio frendly at 3 and half mins, the strings at the end when i started out it sounding like the Russian philharmonic, i thought it was a bit overkill so i have edited it down, but is it still too Russian sound track sounding ?

https://soundcloud.com/mr-funky-7/lonely-2-am/s-45wRv

Cheers for any input.

[Newfoundfreedom]

I'm definitely in the no bras camp. 

[funkgod]

Cheers, and thanks for your time on giving an airing, its a funny thing once you get an idea in your head you want to add it, sometimes to the point of distroying the original idea by overkilling it, but dam its so tempting, so best bet i thought is to get some fresh ears on it, thanks alot

 

[lowdown]

You never know until you try, regarding arrangements. I think stabs would work well, should give the track a slight lift? And defiantly within that particular groove and style. 

The second track, with the heavier, ambient, string section, could do with a smaller section patch. Chamber size , or something more dry and smaller (disco size, 4 or 6 stgs). That Symphony size seems over the top and out of context for me. Just my opinion of course, and like I said earlier, nothing to lose (other than time) reworking arrangements. 

Good stuff, though. I enjoyed the listen. ... 👍

Edited April 23, 2019 by lowdown

[paul_c2]

This is why programs have "Save As...". You can keep the original then go off on a tangent and try something. 

Let your ears be the judge - if it sounds right, it is right. And vice versa.

[Newfoundfreedom]

13 hours ago, Newfoundfreedom said:

I'm definitely in the no bras camp. 

I think I misunderstood the question. 

[funkgod]

ok cheers guys, brass worth a go, i sort of new that anyway, but thought if people say its ok with out and might clutter it, that would save me having to get brass guys in to do it as i dont play brass, what i should of done was put synth brass on it, then ask with or without, and if for the most people like it the get my mate in to do it with real brass, in fact thats what i will do.

Reg the string section, cheers lowdown yea its abit too much, you should of heard it before ! the london philly would of been proud, so many layers. smaller section might do it while not changing the melody as i like that slightly russian feeling  melody, i have the strings going through doubler effect i have on the D8B desk and there is allot of reverb on them strings making them sound even more massive, sometimes big is not best,

listening to some of the jamiroquai tracks, their use of strings for the most is quite dry and as you say smaller sections like too young to die,

while its great to have real strings to create that feel its very hard to get that using synth strings, im using a korg TR rack for my strings, old and dated but does have good strings in it, i have done allot a dabbling with it to try and creat smaller string sections, some passable some not so. I should maybe look at more modern strings, Ideas ? another idea was as in the track above too young to die at about 1:27 was use brass as strings, again back to another undertaking, its all fun, and thanks for yall input, its great to get other views, cheers

Edited April 23, 2019 by funkgod

[paul_c2]

The effort vs reward for getting "real" stringed instruments in, is probably too low to pursue except for specific cases. Violins, violas and cellos are quiet and would definitely need amplification, and its a bit of a technical exercise in itself. Its not just a case of sticking a vocal mic in front of them, they will feedback and the actual sound produced would be poor. You'd need to use something like a dedicated condenser instrument mic with a violin clamp. Also, the "sound of an orchestra" is partly because a chorus of many violins playing in unison (I know there's 1st and 2nd violins...and divisi....I mean >1 are playing each of the however many parts there are....) blends well and produces a distinct sound of its own. Quite different to a "solo" violin. 

For brass and saxes, yes ideally you'd use an instrument condenser mic, but they are loud enough you CAN just plop them in front of an appropriately placed vocal mic and it sounds okay, and also won't feedback nearly as much because they are naturally quite a loud instrument.

Also, unless you know what you're doing, try to talk to an actual trumpet and sax player about what's hard or easy, or possible or impossible, or be prepared to rearrange or shift things up or down an octave, etc. They are quite different from guitar and bass and can do wonderful things - but there's things they can't do or is very difficult, which for a bassist is very easy. For example, octave jumps etc. BUT that's not a bad thing - use their advantages. For example (a really basic one) might be instead of having a repetitive 8th note pattern, let them play one long note but do an sfp followed by crescendo on it. A wind instrument (and a bowed string) can vary the volume of a note once its initiated. 

A good example would be the first few bars of "Nutbush City Limits", notice how there's only 3 notes in their first 2 bars, if a guitar played the notes it would be drab but they are able to use their control of dynamics.

 

[funkgod]

Hi Paul Thanks very much for that, loads of great valid points and info,  im not going down the real string route, forget all that, haha, as you say effort v reward, it would nice to have the luxury of all that time, money and resources to get that, that would be just a fab world to live in,  so its down to synth or software strings for us poor people, 🙂 i have no problems doing brass parts, i think i have that down as much as i need it as nearly all of my other tracks have brass like this,

https://soundcloud.com/mr-funky-7/funkafonix-we-got-soul-15m/s-f9VPB

those 3 notes in nutbush sound huge don't they, sounds like a mix of brass and strings ?

brass and strings .... mmmmm so tempting.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by funkgod

[paul_c2]

I am going to take a wild stab in the dark, that's not actual brass playing....but synth brass. 

Real brass WILL make a difference on those kinds of lines - it won't be quite as tight, but that's a good thing, it allows the expressiveness to come through. Worth bearing in mind, if you're going to perform it live. And if you recorded it, you could leave it not quite timed exactly, or spend a day quantising it all etc.....

Often in arranging, the saxes - particularly the alto sax, which is quite soft and quiet compared to tenor - can effectively replace the part of the strings. If you really want to make it lush.....use some French Horns. Just listen to pretty much any film soundtrack by John Williams, tons of examples in film scores.

[funkgod]

hi paul, no, its real brass and you are right it took a lot, ALLOT of time editing 3 saxs 1 trombone and 2 trumpet parts, you can just hear the trombone slightly flat at the begining held lines,in fact though you might not be able to hear it those brass stabs at the end on 2 and 4 run right through the song sometimes in odd places just enough to give them beats some punch.  i wish i had "quantising" all my gear is old school not a PC in sight so all recording and editing is done on a two Mackie HDRs linked to a mackie D8B desk, and there is no quantising,  just editing hell for allot longer than a day, quantising ? you dont know you are born 🙂 i wish haha, but i love the sound of the HDRs and im just too use to them to change.

Yes John Williams  is another world, the guy comes from outer space, he is just amazing, french horns ?, never thought of using french horns before but can see what you are on about, they do have a sound of there own and would give brass parts some separation in sound, im going to try that and experiment with that idea, thanks again.

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by funkgod

[lowdown]

On 23/04/2019 at 13:59, funkgod said:

Hi Paul Thanks very much for that, loads of great valid points and info,  im not going down the real string route, forget all that, haha, as you say effort v reward, it would nice to have the luxury of all that time, money and resources to get that, that would be just a fab world to live in,  so its down to synth or software strings for us poor people, 🙂 i have no problems doing brass parts, i think i have that down as much as i need it as nearly all of my other tracks have brass like this,

those 3 notes in nutbush sound huge don't they, sounds like a mix of brass and strings ?

brass and strings .... mmmmm so tempting.

 

 

Sample Libraries have come along way, price wise, and with the amount of articulations available in each patch.

Great mock ups are used all the time these days on TV, even the top film composers use Orchestral sample libraries for the composition process.

This is because they can keep the director involved every step of the way before the final scoring sessions. The director then has a good idea of what cues are going to sound like, and sometimes they re-cut the film to work around the music. All this saves time before the Orchestra is assembled for the sessions.

The link below is a great resource in programming realism into Strings, Brass and Woodwinds. Worth half an hour of watching and listening.

Although he is using a film score cue for the demonstration, the same principles apply to Jazz/pop/funk, when programming.

 

 

[funkgod]

Cheers Lowdown i will also check that out, I have been holding off getting new tec into my working of songs, not because im against it in any way, only because it means me having to learn yet another process and getting a pc or laptop involved into my set up,  but i do realise i am being left behind,  not that that ever bothered me as i always found a way to do stuff with my old gear to make things work, but yea now that i can see things have advanced from my old dabblings with cubase i can now see the NEED and benefits to spend abit of time looking at software, and that looks just the jobbie, i think what put me off software was when i had cubase i wanted brass in songs so i got "chris hein Horns" i spent so long messing around with that and never being able to get what i wanted out of it thinking it was me just not knowing how to use it i carried on, in the end i gave up after spending so long with it with the conclusion that it was the software limitations, and you have go through all that just to find out that you cant use it for what you want. an utter wast of time for me, some may love it.

in the end i just got a mic and  hummed brass lines  on to the track and then my mate just came sax in hand and did the line then played the harmonies, done.

samples, i still use my AKAI Z4 for samples and have now a mad collection of samples for allot of stuff, it has the 8 chan output card on the back so can have 8 chans to the inputs to the desk and create some big strings or sounds, i know there is software that does all that now but again it was just another process that i knew how to do against learning another.

Cheers Lowdown i will look at that.

[lowdown]

On 26/04/2019 at 11:08, funkgod said:

Cheers Lowdown i will also check that out, I have been holding off getting new tec into my working of songs, not because im against it in any way, only because it means me having to learn yet another process and getting a pc or laptop involved into my set up,  but i do realise i am being left behind,  not that that ever bothered me as i always found a way to do stuff with my old gear to make things work, but yea now that i can see things have advanced from my old dabblings with cubase i can now see the NEED and benefits to spend abit of time looking at software, and that looks just the jobbie, i think what put me off software was when i had cubase i wanted brass in songs so i got "chris hein Horns" i spent so long messing around with that and never being able to get what i wanted out of it thinking it was me just not knowing how to use it i carried on, in the end i gave up after spending so long with it with the conclusion that it was the software limitations, and you have go through all that just to find out that you cant use it for what you want. an utter wast of time for me, some may love it.

in the end i just got a mic and  hummed brass lines  on to the track and then my mate just came sax in hand and did the line then played the harmonies, done.

samples, i still use my AKAI Z4 for samples and have now a mad collection of samples for allot of stuff, it has the 8 chan output card on the back so can have 8 chans to the inputs to the desk and create some big strings or sounds, i know there is software that does all that now but again it was just another process that i knew how to do against learning another.

Cheers Lowdown i will look at that.

Haha...CH Horns, I think they are great (and I still use them for non Classical stuff).

Here is a track I wrote for the Basschat Comp five years ago using those horns (with some small, additional layering).

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by lowdown

[funkgod]

That sounds fantastic, how old is your copy of CHH ? mine is vol 1 i still have it.

i just gave up with it in the end, you seem to have it down really well. No sign of software limitations there anyway.

so it was me then after all that... bugger.

after that i feel so tempted to have another go,

i did use to get " must try harder in my school books" 🙂

Edited April 26, 2019 by funkgod

[funkgod]

Cheers for all the advice guys, im going to do some editing, and try some new software, and old :-) .....again.

[lowdown]

16 hours ago, funkgod said:

 how old is your copy of CHH ? mine is vol 1 i still have it.

i just gave up with it in the end, you seem to have it down really well. No sign of software limitations there anyway.

so it was me then after all that... bugger.

after that i feel so tempted to have another go,

i did use to get " must try harder in my school books" 🙂

My version is the old one as well, about 7/8 years old. There are bigger and better around these days, but CHH's do the job very well with a little bit of programming help.

Edited April 27, 2019 by lowdown

[funkgod]

1 hour ago, lowdown said:

My version is the old one as well, about 7/8 years old. There are bigger and better around these days, but CHH's do the job very well with a little bit of programming help.

I have i think nearly every down to the bone CDs they have done and i have heard worse down to the bone tracks than that :-) 

you should do an album full of grooves like that, its current and cool.

[Witters]

On 26/04/2019 at 17:25, lowdown said:

Haha...CH Horns, I think they are great (and I still use them for non Classical stuff).

Here is a track I wrote for the Basschat Comp five years ago using those horns (with some small, additional layering).

 

That is really good! Great groove, I’d like to hear more.

[bazzbass]

Johnny Cash was recording "Ring of Fire" in the studio.

It was lacking SOMETHING.

Nothing really worked. They took a break.

At the same time the brass section from the Tijuana Brass band were exiting the other studio when the producer said "hey could you lay something down for us?"

And that, boys and girls was how the song became a hit. It's nothing without the horns