AM1 Posted December 12, 2008 Share Posted December 12, 2008 Hi I know I'm a sad loser and it's Friday and I should go out but I enjoyed too much medicinal sherry last night plus I love it here already, loads of info! Anyway - interested in how people create dynamics on the bass. It is instinctive to me to kick it up a notch when other musicians do and obviously this would be the case when switching from obvious quiet to loud, i.e. when going from a quiet verse to an explosive chorus. But what about other times, how can you express dynamics in the music on the bass without it being inappropriate i.e. when a singer is singing? Regards AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 16, 2008 Share Posted December 16, 2008 Not really sure what you're asking. I go louder and quieter when I think the song needs it - I normally lead that side of things onstage, trying to support the singer as much as possible. One thing I tell all the guys is that the turn-around on any sequence is the place to take it up a notch or take it down a notch, and I'm trying to get the drummer to mimic whatever rhythmic thing I do on the turn-around to either increase or decrease intensity. Apart from that, I tend not to play every note as loud as each other. I tend to accent or camouflage certain notes 'cos that's just how I like to phrase things. Everything grooves more that way, I think. Are those the kinds of things you meant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acidbass Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 [quote name='The Funk' post='355872' date='Dec 16 2008, 12:39 PM']Not really sure what you're asking. I go louder and quieter when I think the song needs it - I normally lead that side of things onstage, trying to support the singer as much as possible. One thing I tell all the guys is that the turn-around on any sequence is the place to take it up a notch or take it down a notch, and I'm trying to get the drummer to mimic whatever rhythmic thing I do on the turn-around to either increase or decrease intensity. Apart from that, I tend not to play every note as loud as each other. I tend to accent or camouflage certain notes 'cos that's just how I like to phrase things. Everything grooves more that way, I think. Are those the kinds of things you meant?[/quote] Great answer! The part you said about going up and down a notch is a good point, I tend to play at a consistent level where I can easily shift up or down depending on what the song needs/the way the band is going. Definitely makes for a more interesting performance for me and (hopefully) the audience! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 [quote name='AM1' post='353063' date='Dec 12 2008, 07:59 PM']Anyway - interested in how people create dynamics on the bass. It is instinctive to me to kick it up a notch when other musicians do and obviously this would be the case when switching from obvious quiet to loud, i.e. when going from a quiet verse to an explosive chorus. But what about other times, how can you express dynamics in the music on the bass without it being inappropriate i.e. when a singer is singing?[/quote] Dynamics are about subtlety and should not just be about volume. Louder is usually just louder and not necessarily dynamic at all! But try telling that to a guitarist!! Try altering the volume of your playing using, your right hand technique. Playing louder and quieter will make you play differently which will help with the dynamics. Playing less or playing more will also add emphasis to what you are playing. You can't do it on your own. The whole band has to be sensitive to the dynamics of a number. For example: when the drummer changes from hi-hat to ride cymbal the volume should stay the same but the whole dynamic changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 I've found that since I started singing and playing I've become even more obsessed with dynamics but also as I'm filling two roles I have that much more control of the band's dynamics, which is nice. I've attached a live recording from a gig back in August which is a good example of this - because it's onto a minidisc via a tiny mic in the room there's a ton of compression on it but you can still hear the inherent dynamics quite clearly (and if you can't then listen out for the audience talking during the quiet bits and then being drowned out in the loud bits!) Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoBass Posted December 17, 2008 Share Posted December 17, 2008 If I understand the question correctly, you are looking for ways to create dynamics other than just playing louder/softer. A properly placed effect can help with this. It's always nice to drop dynamically at the beginning of a solo spot and help to build it up as it progresses. Sometimes this inspires guitarists to "take it to the next level" as they solo. Suddenly dropping back down to "verse dynamic" afterward is cool too. I helps to take the tune someplace and back. Hopefully... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin100 Posted December 18, 2008 Share Posted December 18, 2008 I think that the dynamics of playing the bass does include the volume of each note but also a lot more. You can emphasis different notes by playing them louder or softer just like a good singer would emphasis different notes to give the music feeling. Along side this the lenght of note I have found to very important in some types of music. Varying the lengh of different notes in combination with volume can make your instrument groove and sound very musical. I played for years concentrating on keeping my playing tight... but only at the start of each note and not giving much thought to the end of the note. You can stil keep it tight even when varying the lenght of notes. Just be careful when and where. Comming to mind right now would be your note choice and order of notes.... some notes sound better or worse depending on what came before hand....... not to mention complementing the rest of the band.... blah blah blah.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='colin100' post='358262' date='Dec 18 2008, 08:44 PM']I think that the dynamics of playing the bass does include the volume of each note but also a lot more. You can emphasis different notes by playing them louder or softer just like a good singer would emphasis different notes to give the music feeling. Along side this the lenght of note I have found to very important in some types of music. Varying the lengh of different notes in combination with volume can make your instrument groove and sound very musical. I played for years concentrating on keeping my playing tight... but only at the start of each note and not giving much thought to the end of the note. You can stil keep it tight even when varying the lenght of notes. Just be careful when and where. Comming to mind right now would be your note choice and order of notes.... some notes sound better or worse depending on what came before hand....... not to mention complementing the rest of the band.... blah blah blah....[/quote] Hiya - this comes quite close to the lines I was thinking along. Just varying the volume up and down (in line with the band) is only one form of dynamics. There is a technique called rubato, pushing and pulling the notes away from the beat (not syncopation but similar) anyway that in combination with accents on certain notes is subtle but very effective on piano, I just don't hear it very often on the bass and wondered if anyone here uses the more subtle, but funky dynamics techniques. Rubato cannot really be taught, it has to come from the musician in individual expression of music, even written notes have to be played differently to evoke it. Rgds AM Edited December 18, 2008 by AM1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I was talking to a guitar player today who I play with supporting a female singer. He likes to do that rubato stuff but it doesn't tend to work if there's a bass player there as well. We also had to both adjust to playing a bit more on the beat as he tends to prefer playing behind (sometimes way behind) while I prefer playing very slightly ahead of the beat. In my own band, I play slightly ahead usually, our keyboard player plays slightly behind, our guitarist plays rigidly dead on and our drummer very occasionally loses his sense of where the beat actually is as a result - and either speeds up or slows down. This is the danger with messing around too much with where the beat is - even for experienced musicians with great rhythm and good time. Personally, I don't think any of that really counts as dynamics. Dynamics is a bit more specific IMO than just altering the feel or intensity of a song. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 [quote]Personally, I don't think any of that really counts as dynamics. Dynamics is a bit more specific IMO than just altering the feel or intensity of a song.[/quote] I would say that's [i]exactly [/i]what dynamics is... I would say dynamics is playing with the ebb and flow of the song, intensity, loudness/softness, speed, arrangements etc. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 Dynamics is how loud or soft you play the notes. That's it. Everything else contributes to feel and the dynamic (singular) of the music but dynamics on your instrument is ppp to FFF. Yes you can use effects or other methods (double and triple stops) as part of these dynamics, but that's muddying the issue - if you want to improve your dynamics do that, don't pretend that stomping on a distortion box is the same. Michael Manring wrote a fantastic column about this in one of the earliest issues of BP I read. His recommendation was to find the loudest clean note you could play on your bass. Then to find the quietest clean note. Then to find about half a dozen levels in between. And then practice playing lines at specific levels. If you have a VU type meter and stay within a narrow register you can test yourself to make sure you're consistent. It may seems like semantics but in my opinion these details matter far more in 99% of playing situations than any amount of soloing skills. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 [quote name='mcgraham' post='358577' date='Dec 19 2008, 09:24 AM']I would say that's [i]exactly [/i]what dynamics is... I would say dynamics is playing with the ebb and flow of the song, intensity, loudness/softness, speed, arrangements etc.[/quote] I agree with Alex's comments. I think what you're describing is what being a good musician is all about - a bit broader than the concept of dynamics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='358836' date='Dec 19 2008, 02:32 PM']Dynamics is how loud or soft you play the notes. That's it. Everything else contributes to feel and the dynamic (singular) of the music but dynamics on your instrument is ppp to FFF. Yes you can use effects or other methods (double and triple stops) as part of these dynamics, but that's muddying the issue - if you want to improve your dynamics do that, don't pretend that stomping on a distortion box is the same. Michael Manring wrote a fantastic column about this in one of the earliest issues of BP I read. His recommendation was to find the loudest clean note you could play on your bass. Then to find the quietest clean note. Then to find about half a dozen levels in between. And then practice playing lines at specific levels. If you have a VU type meter and stay within a narrow register you can test yourself to make sure you're consistent. It may seems like semantics but in my opinion these details matter far more in 99% of playing situations than any amount of soloing skills. Alex[/quote] Dynamics is part of expressionism and rhythm is a major part of expressionism. You can't technically divorce the two even in any semantic context. Basic dynamics yes is levels of loudness but that's just up and down in volume, I'm talking about using rhythmic techniques along with variations to volume, for example a one note accent at the start of a bar, where you play the note slightly off the beat (not syncopated) and with an accent, sforzando style. This can be heard in music on other instruments but I don't often hear it on the bass. Regards AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 So... basically... I was right. Glad we established that Just jesting. I agree that classically the term refers (at least primarily, if not exclusively) to how you use changes in volume, but I'm a subscriber to the more contemporary use of the phrase. See the first paragraph of the wikipedia article on Dynamics (music) for support in reference to such dynamics. Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I don't like it. I prefer the term phrasing for phrasing. But there you go. Guess I'll have to go change wikipedia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 (edited) [quote name='AM1' post='358950' date='Dec 19 2008, 04:47 PM']Dynamics is part of expressionism and rhythm is a major part of expressionism. You can't technically divorce the two even in any semantic context.[/quote] I'm sorry to come over all Jeff Berlin but that is complete rubbish. Everything in music is interconnected and thus during performance should be integrated as a cohesive whole but if you are to have any structure in your learning then you have to divorce the different components to develop an understanding of them. [quote name='AM1' post='358950' date='Dec 19 2008, 04:47 PM']Basic dynamics yes is levels of loudness but that's just up and down in volume.[/quote] There's no 'just' about it. Most rock bassists I hear don't seem to have the slightest clue when it comes to dynamic control, often a result of spending years struggling to be heard. [quote name='AM1' post='358950' date='Dec 19 2008, 04:47 PM']I'm talking about using rhythmic techniques along with variations to volume, for example a one note accent at the start of a bar, where you play the note slightly off the beat (not syncopated) and with an accent, sforzando style. This can be heard in music on other instruments but I don't often hear it on the bass.[/quote] That isn't just dynamics, it's phrasing with the use of timing and dynamics. [quote name='mcgraham' post='358961' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:00 PM']So... basically... I was right. Glad we established that [/quote] No, you're still as a wrong as a wrong thing. [quote name='mcgraham' post='358961' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:00 PM']Just jesting. I agree that classically the term refers (at least primarily, if not exclusively) to how you use changes in volume, but I'm a subscriber to the more contemporary use of the phrase. See the first paragraph of the wikipedia article on Dynamics (music) for support in reference to such dynamics.[/quote] But is it the more contemporary use? It's certainly the more confusing use. To me, and clearly to classically schooled musicians (which I'm not), dynamics refer to control of loudness (not volume technically but that's another can of worms). We then have other tools at our disposal - timing (position vs the beat, note length, shuffle/swing), tone, and other phrasing (how you come into and out of a note - e.g. slides, hammer ons and pull offs, vibrato). To learn how to use these tools you have to be able to separate them but obviously once you're playing then you should reintegrate them. Along with dynamics these all work together to give you the groove/vibe/attitude/emotion of a bassline and/or piece of music. To use the word dynamics to refer to that overall vibe seems like asking for confusion when there are so many other words available in English. The sad thing about all this is that we all clearly agree on the importance of these weapons of choice but as we're discussing them in the backwater of 'theory and technique' everyone else that's oblivious to them is too busy browsing the for sale forum to see what they can buy to get their 'sound'... Alex P.S. AM, I like your posts even if I don't always agree, nice to have some more intelligent thought on here. P.P.S. Not saying that you lot are stupid... P.P.P.S. Apart from you - you know you I'm talking to. Edited December 19, 2008 by alexclaber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 Hello Alex I'll make my reply now before I get started on some cheap liquor [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']I'm sorry to come over all Jeff Berlin but that is complete rubbish. Everything in music is interconnected and thus during performance should be integrated as a cohesive whole but if you are to have any structure in your learning then you have to divorce the different components to develop an understanding of them.[/quote] With due respect, the context of the discussion is about PLAYING music. Learning is a different ball game. So, my original point stands - when PLAYING music, you can't divorce rhythm and dynamics as fundamental components of expressionism. [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']There's no 'just' about it. Most rock bassists I hear don't seem to have the slightest clue when it comes to dynamic control, often a result of spending years struggling to be heard.[/quote] Irrelevant. [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']That isn't just dynamics, it's phrasing with the use of timing and dynamics.[/quote] Again, we're back to philosophising over "traditional" and "contemporary" meanings to the word dynamics. If phrasing is used without dynamics (in the traditional sense!), there's no expressionism. You can't divorce the two, if the music is to have any meaning. [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']But is it the more contemporary use? It's certainly the more confusing use. To me, and clearly to classically schooled musicians (which I'm not), dynamics refer to control of loudness (not volume technically but that's another can of worms).[/quote] Irrelevant. Since music encapsulates expressionism, all the components which make it expressive are part of the dynamic subset. [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']We then have other tools at our disposal - timing (position vs the beat, note length, shuffle/swing), tone, and other phrasing (how you come into and out of a note - e.g. slides, hammer ons and pull offs, vibrato). To learn how to use these tools you have to be able to separate them but obviously once you're playing then you should reintegrate them.[/quote] Yes and classically trained musicians would argue that ornaments, upper and lower mordents. trills and the like are fundamental and integrated. It is the same argument as dynamics and expression. [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']Along with dynamics these all work together to give you the groove/vibe/attitude/emotion of a bassline and/or piece of music. To use the word dynamics to refer to that overall vibe seems like asking for confusion when there are so many other words available in English.[/quote] I will concede that arguing over which word describes the overall feel best is pointless. [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']The sad thing about all this is that we all clearly agree on the importance of these weapons of choice but as we're discussing them in the backwater of 'theory and technique' everyone else that's oblivious to them is too busy browsing the for sale forum to see what they can buy to get their 'sound'... [/quote] A great sound comes from a great craftsman and all the sonic scientists in the world can disagree, but the player maketh the music. [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']P.S. AM, I like your posts even if I don't always agree, nice to have some more intelligent thought on here.[/quote] I look forward to disagreeing some more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 [quote name='AM1' post='359026' date='Dec 19 2008, 06:17 PM']A great sound comes from a great craftsman and all the sonic scientists in the world can disagree, but the player maketh the music.[/quote] Indeed. I am particularly mistrustful of sonic scientists. A couple of other things: Regarding your earlier point "for example a one note accent at the start of a bar, where you play the note slightly off the beat (not syncopated) and with an accent, sforzando style. This can be heard in music on other instruments but I don't often hear it on the bass," I would attribute this to such accents having a habit of upsetting the groove of a piece. Now I'm even more obsessed with timing than I am with dynamics - particularly regarding note duration and position vs the beat - so I will often sit way back or play with loads of top spin but I can't think of many occasions where I'd shift my position vs the beat a long way within the course of a bar or a phrase. There are occasions when this does happen but it's more a case of the whole rhythm section going rubato, so my drummer and I might sit back so far on a 16th note fill that we pull it back into 8th note triplets before hitting the next downbeat and reverting to our previous groove locations. But if I were to do that on my own and the drummer didn't go with me it would sound very strange. Now I think about it more there are examples when maybe my guitarist and myself might move against the drummer similarly. I think it is possible on your own on the bass but only if you step forward sonically in the mix and briefly shift role from the bass role to a hybrid bass/lead role by maybe digging in back by the bridge or popping some notes or something. I thought I'd forgotten my other point but it has come back to me. A big part of emotional expression is speeding up or slowing down. More experienced players will often achieve this vibe with little or no change in tempo through shifting position vs the beat but that's not easy for newbies. The other big indicator of expression is dynamics - playing louder or softer. Generally when you ask someone to play louder they also play faster. When you ask someone to play softer they play slower - it's one of those annoying things that takes quite a lot of self-awareness to break the habit. What happens if you need to play louder but slower - like when you're grunging it out with some Sabbath-esque metal and pulling back as you go into an outro - not an easy thing to do unless you've make the break and learnt how to control tempo and dynamics independently. Another example where you need to separate dynamics and 'the dynamic' is when you break a song down into one of those intense quieter sections, where the rhythm section might switch into double-time but really quietly whilst the vocalist is almost whispering. You build a lot of tension through restraining the band from playing at the dynamic that the music wants and then when you do release and break into full loudness it works that much better. But to get that intensity whilst playing softly you have to learn to play intensely and aggressively yet quietly, which is totally at odds with simplistic convention. We may be talking about playing music but to do that you have to learn first! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 I have to say Alex and I are clearly in the same camp on this and I don't have much to add. I would like to pick him up on two points though: [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']I'm sorry to come over all Jeff Berlin but that is complete rubbish. Everything in music is interconnected and thus during performance should be integrated as a cohesive whole but if you are to have any structure in your learning then you have to divorce the different components to develop an understanding of them.[/quote] I don't think Jeff Berlin is the right guy to compare yourself to on this. He believes that the concepts of right hand and left hand technique are pointless as you have to play with both hands. I disagree with him and agree with you on this: focus on louder and softer while working on dynamics, focus on positioning notes in relation to the beat and accents when thinking about phrasing. I tend to see phrasing as an individual thing and dynamics as a group thing. We are all arguing about words though. [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']P.P.S. Not saying that you lot are stupid... P.P.P.S. Apart from you - you know you I'm talking to.[/quote] Fine! That's the last time I agree with you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonzoBass Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 [u]Dynamics[/u]- The loudness or softness of a composition. The term piano (p) is used to indicate softness and forte (f) to indicate loudness. Each of these is augmented if the letter symbolizing it is doubled or tripled (e.g. "pp" - "pianissimo", "very soft"; "ppp" - "pianississimo", "very, very soft"). Each is also lessened if proceeded by mezzo (m) (e.g. "mf" - "mezzo forte", "somewhat loud"). Also included in dynamics are the crescendo ("slowly growing louder"), decrescendo ("slowly growing softer") and the sforzando ("sudden loudness"). Dynamic marks further explained [url="http://www.music.vt.edu/musicdictionary/appendix/dynamics/dynamics.html"]HERE[/url]. [u]Rubato[/u]- A practice common in Romantic compositions of taking part of the duration from one note and giving it to another. It involves the performer tastefully stretching, slowing, or hurrying the tempo as she/he sees fit, thus imparting flexibility and emotion to the performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBeefChief Posted December 19, 2008 Share Posted December 19, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='359011' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:56 PM']P.S. AM, I like your posts even if I don't always agree, nice to have some more intelligent thought on here.[/quote] Alex, I'm sorry, I know I haven't been posting as much recently, but I've not gone anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AM1 Posted December 19, 2008 Author Share Posted December 19, 2008 [quote name='BigBeefChief' post='359155' date='Dec 19 2008, 08:52 PM']Alex, I'm sorry, I know I haven't been posting as much recently, but I've not gone anywhere.[/quote] Why, good evening, BBC How nice of you to join the party. You will be delighted to know I have been playing some beautiful Warwicks this week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alun Posted December 22, 2008 Share Posted December 22, 2008 As the old joke goes... Bandleader: Play with more dynamics Guitarist: I'm playing as loud as I can Anyway, Victor Wooten's new DVD Groove Workshop has some great stuff on dynamics, phrasing, etc. It's a lot to take in ( 5+ hours worth!) but has some great practical advice, not just the usual instructional "look how noodly I am" DVD content Cheers Alun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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