Zoom B1-4 & B3N - Effects patch ideas and tips

[dave_bass5]

 

1 hour ago, Si600 said:

Do any of you fine fellows have a suggestion of what to add to a patch to get more presence to a tone? A bit more plump of heft just to fill out a three piece, especially when the guitar goes off on a solo and we lose the chords? It was in here, or maybe in the forum linked where there was the suggestion of an octaves, but that adds a growl to my clean sound that I don't want.

Distortion can go a long way to fill out the tone. It can sound wrong in isolation, but mixed in with the band it can make a big difference, without sounding like you are using it. Even a lot of bass recordings sound ropey when isolated, but sit and fill the mix out well due to the extra harmonic’s and overtones and you’d never know they had dirt on them. 

Also the distortion will add a bit of natural compression as well. 

The way presence works on an amp is a bit different to just using EQ, as its normally working on the power/output stage i believe, rather than in the pre amp. So if you aren’t driving it hard its just like EQ, but when pushed harder it changes how it effects the tone. 

Be careful if using stereo effects going in to a mono rig. You could (under certain situations) end up with phase issues and that will make the tone sound weak in places. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by dave_bass5

[Al Krow]

46 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Be careful if using stereo effects going in to a mono rig. You could (under certain situations) end up with phase issues and that will make the tone sound weak in places. 

You raise an interesting point about stereo effects going into mono rigs. Must admit I've not come across any phase issues so far - I find it's, for example, swamped by the phasing on the chorus effect itself, but I'll keep an ear out for it.

Has it been particularly noticeable on any particular patches you've created?

I guess similar to concerns which have been raised about "comb filtering" arising when running a digital effect in parallel to an analogue one or when using fx loops - in practice I've struggled to hear anything noticeable, but I guess these things can all incrementally add up.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Al Krow

[dave_bass5]

Ive never intentionally run a stereo effect in to a mono rig, mainly as i didnt see the point, so i can comment on the B1 specifically. At home it will be in headphones so stereo all the way there. Its just a general warning that it can happen, and its more noticeable when a band are playing and suddenly the bass disappears on certain notes etc.  

By phase issues I’m talking about when notes cancel each other out because they are 180 out of phase with each other, just so we are clear.

[Al Krow]

41 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

I've never intentionally run a stereo effect in to a mono rig, mainly as i didnt see the point, so i can comment on the B1 specifically. At home it will be in headphones so stereo all the way there. Its just a general warning that it can happen, and its more noticeable when a band are playing and suddenly the bass disappears on certain notes etc.  

By phase issues I’m talking about when notes cancel each other out because they are 180 out of phase with each other, just so we are clear.

Ok. But as there is only a mono output from the Zoom B1-4 (and I'm guessing with most of the Zoom multifx pedals) so I'm not entirely clear whether your point would still apply?

i.e. I don't think the stereo fx are "truly" stereo - more simply trying to emulate what a stereo fx might sound like through a mono rig. So I'm not sure we need to be worried about using the "stereo" Zoom effects in our patches?

But happy to be corrected it that's wrong!

Edited May 16, 2021 by Al Krow

[jrixn1]

No longer have a B1 Four so cannot check, but I think with a TRS it's stereo output, and with TS it switches to mono (actual mono, not just left channel of stereo).

[Woodinblack]

The word stereo only appears twice in the manual, relating to the headphones, but no mention of any stereo processing, whereas the manual for the b3n mentions that the looper can be stereo.

[Al Krow]

58 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

No longer have a B1 Four so cannot check, but I think with a TRS it's stereo output, and with TS it switches to mono (actual mono, not just left channel of stereo).

Thanks John - must admit I haven't come across anyone mentioning that the B1-4, or its stable mates, is capable of anything as sophisticated as you're suggesting.

The manual indicates it's stereo for headphones as Woody has noted above: "OUTPUT: Standard stereo phone jack (combined line/headphone) Maximum output level: Line +2 dBu (10 kΩ or more output impedance) Headphones 17 mW + 17 mW (32 Ω load)"

But given that it can provide stereo for headphones it does raise the interesting question of whether stereo might also be available via TRS as you suggest? But that's well above my pay grade to answer! 😁

The flip side is for those of us using normal TS cables to mono rigs: we shouldn't need to be concerned about using individual stereo fx in our patches i.e. just choose whichever individual effects we best like the sound of.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Al Krow

[isteen]

20 hours ago, Al Krow said:

I almost daren't ask, but that sounds like a happy news story you're sharing with us? If so, that's fantastic news!

You are so right my good man. Beat that nasty thing in 2019 and again as we speak (uhm, write).
Sometimes life is actually pretty good

[Si600]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Fyi I use the term "presence" to mirror the usage by a number of amp and pedal manufacturers i.e. a boost to the high mids and treble, so the Presence patch in the OP library is doing exactly that.

For what you're after, I think you're looking for something a bit more "Royal Blood". Which Zoom model do you have? If you have a B1-4, you could try the Atreides patch from the patch library.

If you have a different model, you can put one together using the following individual effects: [Start of chain] Comp --> Ocatve down --> RAT (Squeak) --> Stereo chorus --> Zoom noise reduction (ZNR) [End of chain].

It's a B3n. Looking at the questions I may be after rocking horse poop! Phat, presence, heft whatever Just something to fill out a trio. If a smidge of warble from the octaver or a smidge of dirt is enough but subtle then I'll try that.

[dave_bass5]

3 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Thanks John - must admit I haven't come across anyone mentioning that the B1-4, or its stable mates, is capable of anything as sophisticated as you're suggesting.

The manual indicates it's stereo for headphones as Woody has noted above: "OUTPUT: Standard stereo phone jack (combined line/headphone) Maximum output level: Line +2 dBu (10 kΩ or more output impedance) Headphones 17 mW + 17 mW (32 Ω load)"

 

Thats say combined line and headphones,  its not described as just a headphone out at all.

So its a stereo out, and you obviously need a TRS with its two rails to get this.

A headphone cable is TRS so its nothing sophisticated at all. A stereo (TRS) jack to two mono jacks gives you a stereo output. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by dave_bass5

[Woodinblack]

It doesn't anywhere say it is stereo out, it says it supports stereo headphones, but no mention anywhere else in the Manual or specifications of any stereo processing.

[dave_bass5]

7 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

It doesn't anywhere say it is stereo out, it says it supports stereo headphones, but no mention anywhere else in the Manual or specifications of any stereo processing.

Well ive never said it does, i haven't once mentioned the B1-Four specifically using stereo processing on its amp and FX sims, only that it DEFINITELY has stereo out. Its pretty clear from the spec its Stereo out. 

 

Let’s face it, anyone here that owns one can test this out rather than going back and forth about what is and what isnt in the manual. Its so simple to prove either way. 

Spoiler alert….of course it processes stereo. Why would they include stereo FX otherwise?

 

 

 

[dave_bass5]

5 hours ago, Al Krow said:

 

But given that it can provide stereo for headphones it does raise the interesting question of whether stereo might also be available via TRS as you suggest? But that's well above my pay grade to answer! 😁

The flip side is for those of us using normal TS cables to mono rigs: we shouldn't need to be concerned about using individual stereo fx in our patches i.e. just choose whichever individual effects we best like the sound of.

But a headphone cable is a TRS cable. Its not above your ‘pay grade’ because your talk a lot about TRS cables, so you must know this?

 

 

[PaulThePlug]

22 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

Spoiler alert….of course it processes stereo. Why would they include stereo FX otherwise?

Be interesting if you could use a stereo FX, then apply different FX after on the left and right...

presume you just get a plain out on the other chanel.

[dave_bass5]

6 minutes ago, PaulThePlug said:

Be interesting if you could use a stereo FX, then apply different FX after on the left and right...

presume you just get a plain out on the other chanel.

There is no way of access the left and right as separate channels unfortunately. The list of the effects only has a few with the name Stereo in it so most are mono (even though it DOESNT state i this anywhere  in the manual either lol), but a few more are stereo as well.  None have a left right balance control though. 

Edited May 16, 2021 by dave_bass5

[Al Krow]

43 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

But a headphone cable is a TRS cable. Its not above your ‘pay grade’ because you talk a lot about TRS cables, so you must know this?

A lot? 😂 My knowledge is pretty limited on TRS cables, defo not my specialist subject - haha! I know that I need to use a TRS cable to connect an expression pedal or additional foot switches, and that I've had a Y cable that was TRS to tip and rim, but that's about it really! 

But I think there are a couple of useful takeaways from the discussion:

1. If we're using a "stereo" effect in any of our B1-4 patches with a normal (TS) cable then you're not going to have an issue. (This is relevant to most of us). This was the concern (not specific to the B1-4) you raised about us being lost in the mix - I think based on the discussion it's safe to conclude that this shouldn't be a problem for us if we're using a normal bass lead or wireless. 

2. If you use a TRS cable you might be able to get stereo output if you are bi-amping. (I guess this may be relevant and of interest to some users, but certainly not something I'll likely be doing any time soon). 

14 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

There is no way of access the left and right as separate channels unfortunately. The list of the effects only has a few with the name Stereo in it so most are mono (even though it DOESNT state i this anywhere  in the manual either lol), but a few more are stereo as well.  None have a left right balance control though. 

That would seem to limit the benefit of any possible stereo out quite a lot, for folk looking to make use of it. 

But it's been an interesting / useful deep dive on this point, so I'm glad you brought it up. 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

Well ive never said it does, i haven't once mentioned the B1-Four specifically using stereo processing on its amp and FX sims, only that it DEFINITELY has stereo out. Its pretty clear from the spec its Stereo out. 
 

I haven't found anything that said it has stereo out, just that it is a stereo plug. I have several mono only products with a stereo plug, I mean, it wouldn't work well if it didn't.

and I didn't say you said it had, it was a comment.

I haven't had a chance to really test it as I have only had mine a few days. I assumed from reading the manual that it wasn't stereo.

 

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

. Spoiler alert….of course it processes stereo. Why would they include stereo FX otherwise?

Because they are the same effects they use in all of their products, some of which are stereo to maintain patch compatibility? Who knows. I will have a listen on headphones tonight

[dave_bass5]

7 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

A lot? 😂 My knowledge is pretty limited on TRS cables, defo not my specialist subject - haha! I know that I need to use a TRS cable to connect an expression pedal or additional foot switches, and that I've had a Y cable that was TRS to tip and rim, but that's about it really! 

But I think there are a couple of useful takeaways from the discussion:

1. If we're using a "stereo" effect in any of our B1-4 patches with a normal (TS) cable then you're not going to have an issue. (This is relevant to most of us). This was the concern (not specific to the B1-4) you raised about us being lost in the mix - I think based on the discussion it's safe to conclude that this shouldn't be a problem for us if we're using a normal bass lead or wireless. 

2. If you use a TRS cable you might be able to get stereo output if you are bi-amping. (I guess this may be relevant and of interest to some users, but certainly not something I'll likely be doing any time soon). 

That would seem to limit the benefit of any possible stereo out quite a lot, for folk looking to make use of it. 

But it's been an interesting / useful deep dive on this point, so I'm glad you brought it up. 

There is nothing special about a headphone cable, and you obviously understand what a TRS cable is, and you said, you have had a TRS to two mono jacks(?) so you have had the correct cable. 

1. Your missing the point. Summing a stereo signal to mono can cause phase cancellations. This will happen at the summing stage inside the device before it gets out. I’m not saying this will happen with the B1’s stereo effects, but its something that can happen and you cant assume it won’t happen. The situation you mentions is exactly when it can occur.

2. There is nothing ‘might’ about it, its stereo out and thats that. I appreciate you are too busy to try it, and will keep with the doubt, but you have two units, you can prove me right or wrong using your once experience. 

Bi-amping!!!! No idea where that came from. Have you never thought that some might record using stereo effects, or use for headphone practice by playing stereo  audio thorough the B1’s aux in, in to headphones? I’m sure thats a lot, lot more common than bi-amping.

As you know i used to use my Helix and B1 for home practice, always on headphones, which i know others have also done (pretty sure you have recommend the B1 for this sort of thing more than once). 

 

 

[dave_bass5]

10 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I haven't found anything that said it has stereo out, just that it is a stereo plug. I have several mono only products with a stereo plug, I mean, it wouldn't work well if it didn't.

and I didn't say you said it had, it was a comment.

I haven't had a chance to really test it as I have only had mine a few days. I assumed from reading the manual that it wasn't stereo.

 

Because they are the same effects they use in all of their products, some of which are stereo to maintain patch compatibility? Who knows. I will have a listen on headphones tonight

I haven't found any thing that says the B1 is mono either lol, other than the input. The output is even quoted as power per side in the specs. 

I don’t mean to come across arrogant or rude to you, i just cant see why its a sticking point when we can all try this out in a couple of mins. 

IME the manual does state stereo in the output section, and some of the FX are labels as stereo. We all know what manuals can be like. I’d just have though when i said it was stereo someone would have tested it rather than contested it and doubted it without testing it. It just seemed to be dragging on and on. 

Some of the Reverbs are stereo, although not labelled as such, but try the Stereo Chorus. 

[Woodinblack]

17 minutes ago, dave_bass5 said:

 

I don’t mean to come across arrogant or rude to you, i just cant see why its a sticking point when we can all try this out in a couple of mins. 
 

I wasn't taking it as rude, I just assume it wasn't and I can't try it at the moment!

I mean I am not bothered anyways, mine would never be used stereo anyway, but just interested now.

 

[dave_bass5]

10 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I wasn't taking it as rude, I just assume it wasn't and I can't try it at the moment!

I mean I am not bothered anyways, mine would never be used stereo anyway, but just interested now.

 

Yeah, its mainly for bass and most of us don’t need stereo a lot of the time. As i said above i got mine for headphone practice, so stereo out was a must as i used to play my ipad through it. Thats how i know, but can understand not everyone will have used it like that. 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

Bi-amping!!!! No idea where that came from. Have you never thought that some might record using stereo effects, or use for headphone practice by playing stereo audio thorough the B1’s aux in, in to headphones? I’m sure that's a lot, lot more common than bi-amping.

Yeah, agreed. I was just trying to think of how/where someone might actually make use of the stereo in a band mix, which is how the discussion arose,:

9 hours ago, dave_bass5 said:

...it's more noticeable when a band are playing and suddenly the bass disappears on certain notes etc.  

But I think we've concluded that's likely to be a non-point based on the fact that we have a full mono output with a normal (TS) bass lead to an amp which is how most of us have it set up for live use. 

The storm in my tea cup has certainly subsided, and the tea now satisfyingly consumed! All good.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Al Krow

[dave_bass5]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

But I think we've concluded that's likely to be a non-point based on the fact that we have a full mono output with a normal (TS) bass lead to an amp which is how most of us have it set up for live use. 

 

Yep, and using a TS (normal jack) cable and a stereo effect, summed to mono, is when you can (not always will, probably hardly ever if the using has been designed well) get phase issues. The best plan of action is to not use them if you can, or take time to make sure the sound is as expected/wanted if you do. 

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

As i said above i got mine for headphone practice, so stereo out was a must as i used to play my ipad through it. 

I guess I might use that occasionally but probably not so much around the house. i use the Spark for headphone practice which has the ipad via bluetooth and is conveniently by my chair. That is certainly stereo, but it also has dual speakers so it does that too. 

The B1-four would be handy for a quick jam on I guess, but not if it also has to have another cable to the iphone (and live I have the helix FX)

[dave_bass5]

14 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

I guess I might use that occasionally but probably not so much around the house. i use the Spark for headphone practice which has the ipad via bluetooth and is conveniently by my chair. That is certainly stereo, but it also has dual speakers so it does that too. 

The B1-four would be handy for a quick jam on I guess, but not if it also has to have another cable to the iphone (and live I have the helix FX)

I love the B1-four as it can be run off battery, but i also got a cheap Bluetooth receiver off Amazon so i could play my iphone (no headphone out) through it. It didnt cut down on cables as such, but once i discovered i could stream YouTube and Apple Music from my Apple TV,  and use its remote, it made late night living room practice really enjoyable, especially as i also used a wireless  system for the bass.