Demise of the town music store.

[Quilly]

Are online stores killing small music stores? Where I live (south of ROI) guitar stores barely last a wet weekend before folding. There’s about 4-5 establishments in the south east that manage to stay afloat . Is this the same in the UK?

[T-Bay]

We have an old fashioned independent shop in our small market town. But being honest I don’t know how it survives as they have a few beginner guitars, some horrendously overpriced (and always dirty) stock and one type of bass strings (if you are lucky). I really would love it to be brilliant but I guess the level of stock it would need would kill it overnight.

[Quilly]

Where I live there’s a store that sells everything from washing machines to cassette tapes (still) , high end power drills and musical instruments. He has a keen eye for decent budget brands like ‘vintage’ and sx, honer etc. always stocks 3-4 different brands/gauges of bass strings, usually straight forward round rounds but good brands EB, Darrios etc . So I’m lucky I guess. He doesn’t accept electronic payment though, and if you ask him why expect a 30 minute lecture on those bastard banks ! but if you don’t have the cash that’s no problem , you can sort him out when you have it 😆😆

Edited May 10, 2019 by Quilly

[TheGreek]

Haven't been there for a while but my local shop (St Albans) has little choice. Mostly low end Fenders/Squiers and anything they've had traded in. They make low ball offers so it's generally poor stuff anyway. 

The main salesman used to own the shop when it was in different premises - he has a poor reputation with long term players for his practise of low balling. This led to people not shopping there for anything other than strings. 

I'd like to support them but TBH I've been burnt by them in the past so not too bothered if they go under.

The next nearest shop would have been Hemel Hempstead (Lozz's stomping ground). The owner was a Bass player and a nice fella but couldn't compete with the internet.

Shame really as he was one of the Good Guys.

[Quilly]

There’s a great store in Waterford city and he’s been there for 20 years. Prices are competitive, has decent stuff and they can compete with Thomann most of the time . Yer man there told me to get rid of my old Trace mosfet monster and get a nice new class d thingey. I wasn’t happy 😆😆

[TheGreek]

Yep...and while you're at it, throw away your classic vintage Fender and get yourself a nice new Harley Benton...

Remember all that glistens is not gold.

[AndyTravis]

Well, guitar shops paid my mortgage for a number of years.

From my perspective a few things.

Yes, the internet is the big issue.

1. A warehouse with boxes guitars/amps etc is vastly cheaper to run from a website than a chain or even singular shop.

2. Big chain guitar shops need to shift units so the service suffers hugely (the chain I worked for now no longer offer a repair/restring service) which means people aren’t interested in going.

3. The big brands need to shift units...so go with the big chains with ridiculous dealership demands. I think the last buy in for a Gibson dealership was £35k. Small chains cannot do this.

4. The markup/margin/breadwinner is accessories - see point 1. A website for accessories once set up will run itself. 40-50% margin on branded strings and accessories, own brand/Chinese import accessories 60-75% - again, smaller stores haven’t got that buying power. You don’t need to ‘try out’ regular slinkies, so you don’t need the experience - you just buy them 15% cheaper online...

5. Second hand...a shop will buy a £200 retail bass for £100 as a part ex. Why would you part ex for £100 when you can sell it yourself for £180/£200 on eBay/Shpock/Gumtree/Facebook/Basschat. So the shops used to be more varied, and interesting - now they’re not.

6. Trend. It’s actually not that cool to be a muso at the minute. In the 80’s/90’s music was a bigger deal. Kids now don’t want it like we did.

7. Money. I haven’t bought a new (from a shop) bass in the 5 years I’ve not worked in a music shop. See point 5 - why buy new when there’s a glut of cheap second hand gear online...see point six...less buyers, more gear...

I could go on...think that covers most of it.

 

[blisters on my fingers]

Thanks Andy

I have zero knowledge of retail 

"3. The big brands need to shift units...so go with the big chains with ridiculous dealership demands. I think the last buy in for a Gibson dealership was £35k. Small chains cannot do this."

How does the buy in for a dealership work ?

 

[3below]

Mid Wales Music, Newtown.  Great 'traditional' music shop.  Good range of interesting s/h and new kit at variable prices (some bargains, some fair, some ???).  It has been going a long time, I bought one of my basses there in 1990, bought most recent two years ago.  Phil has done well to compete against the rise  of the internet stores, long may it last.   One thing that works for it is being in Mid Wales, if I travel to West Mids or whatever to a large music shop the costs and time become significant.  

Disclaimer - I have no connection other than buying kit over the years.

[AndyTravis]

10 minutes ago, blisters on my fingers said:

Thanks Andy

I have zero knowledge of retail 

"3. The big brands need to shift units...so go with the big chains with ridiculous dealership demands. I think the last buy in for a Gibson dealership was £35k. Small chains cannot do this."

How does the buy in for a dealership work ?

 

“Hello, Gibson...”

’hi, I want to be a Gibson dealer’

”ok, order £35k worth of gear up front...and you can be a dealer”

’I haven’t got £35k...’

”then p*ss off”

that doesn’t include the fact you’ve then got to keep that up for each quarter. And if you don’t place the order, you’re shoved to the back of the queue when the new models are announced. 

They want their money.

oh, and if it arrives smashed, faulty or marked...and you don’t report within 7 days (meaning you have to check every guitar over and people then accuse you of selling ex display because the box is open...) you’re stuck with it.

Edited May 10, 2019 by AndyTravis

[Quilly]

The thing that makes me sad is the reduction of serviceability of gear , especially amplification. Let’s face it a lot of gear is ‘domestic appliance’ grade . Cheap and effective for sure but their innards are packed with  the same quality of circuitry as a Samsung microwave oven. Once broken (and beyond warranty) it is destined for the recycling centre.

[tauzero]

2 hours ago, Quilly said:

There’s a great store in Waterford city and he’s been there for 20 years. Prices are competitive, has decent stuff and they can compete with Thomann most of the time . Yer man there told me to get rid of my old Trace mosfet monster and get a nice new class d thingey. I wasn’t happy 😆😆

I was delighted when I got rid of my old Trace crap and went class D.

That aside, the biggest loss near me was when Musical Exchange in Birmingham (second-hand and new) became Reverb Sounds (new, occasional second-hand thing) and then went bust. There's a few shops doing a small amount of second-hand instruments (only one which is a specifically musical shop though), and there's a couple of bass specialist shops in the UK. Plus there's a few of the larger ones, like PMT and Guitar Guitar, though they tend to stick to the unimaginative.

[Guest]

Just look at the big, long-established retail chains that have gone under in the last 15 years. From Woolworths to Debenhams, If a chain/shop isn’t making money it won’t survive.

I can’t find the strings I use in any UK online store, let alone a shop, I’ve bought my last 5 basses off here or eBay and the only shop I’ve been into in the last 7-8 years has been Bass Direct. Even 25 years ago the standard town music store had little to offer other than beginner instruments plus some accessories. The only reason they survived is that there was no choice other than the shop in the next town or nearest city. The Internet was the final nail in the coffin.

Dare I say it, if I’m looking for a used bass, the first place I’d go would probably be Basschat

Clearly there’s still enough demand for the odd specialist shop, but you won’t see 10 Bass Direct or Bass Gallery-type shops setting up in the UK any time soon!

[jezzaboy]

I own 3 basses at the moment (lightweight I know) and I have bought them all from Guitarguitar. This isnt due to loyalty to GG it`s just that they had what I wanted at the right price. 2 were bought online, 1 from the shop.

There is a local shop but the last time I was in there (which was a few years ago to be fair) they had a couple of packets of Rotosounds and a small selection of basses and guitars. Everything they had in stock was about £40 more expensive than going to any of the shops in Glasgow. I would like to support the shop but they don`t have what I want at the price others charge. And therein lies the problem for small shops.

I try and buy from places that have actual shops and a good online store.

[Hobbayne]

The big London music stores in Denmark Street are still doing a good trade. I bought a Stingray 5 string and a Nate Mendel P bass from Wunjos and was more than impressed with the staff and stock.

As you travel further out into the suburbs, you will be hard pressed to find a decent store.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Hobbayne

[wateroftyne]

To answer the OP - yes. Years ago.

[chris_b]

A bricks and mortar music shop will survive in the short term if it has a successful online store behind it. I used to think the only shops that would survive in the town center were those that the internet couldn't kill, ie food and drinks, but the online delivery companies are now trying to put them out of business now. As usual the Governmental hasn't a clue or just doesn't care about the issues that are killing the high street that they aren't even on the same continent let alone page.

Supermarkets started the decline of independent shops. My son was nearly 18 before he went into a butchers shop That was with me. He's probably never been in one since. I go out into the world to shop, because I'm old and old fashioned, but the kids don't so the high street will continue to wither.

In reality live music is spiraling down to a niche event. The audiences are getting older and fewer. There won't even be a need for online music stores in another 20 years.

[mcnach]

14 hours ago, Quilly said:

Are online stores killing small music stores? Where I live (south of ROI) guitar stores barely last a wet weekend before folding. There’s about 4-5 establishments in the south east that manage to stay afloat . Is this the same in the UK?

 

Pretty much.

The best ones that last longer are big enough to have a substantial online presence and to afford to bulk buy to get competitive prices... but even then they eventually die, it seems.

It must be hard to compete with the big ones online that can afford to have a big warehouse full of gear. But it's also the fact that we became used to "I want X and I want it yesterday". When I started buying music equipment, in the early 90s, I'd do my research based on magazines mostly, I'd wait for weekends to go to shops... and it would often be a week or two from the moment I decide to buy something until I was able to go out and buy it. In person. Now I think we often order stuff and we expect to have it in our hands in a couple of days. It's not unusual to order something on Monday or Tuesday that we want to use live on FRiday night...

Online shopping is too convenient, and for a lot of things, having a physical shop with humans is not a huge advantage from a buyer's perspective.

To buy an instrument... it's different, but a lot of people are happy to buy unseen, knowing they can return it if not to their liking. Smaller shops that do online end up paying for shipping costs, and I can imagine that must hurt if it happens often.

When I bought my first guitars, buying unseen seemed like a crazy idea. We'd go to shops, or to private sellers' homes and spend time trying an instrument, and usually not buying because we wanted the one that felt and sounded right. Now we seem to buy more unseen and unless obviously wrong we just keep it. 

I rarely go to shops, but I went a couple of weeks ago to Guitar Guitar in Glasgow to try a couple of specific basses they had in stock. I very nearly ordered one unseen/untested but I thought I'd try the shop first. I had forgotten what good service felt like. The sales guy was great, knowledgeable, helpful. I tried the basses and found that... they weren't right for me based on the physical design (Thunderbird inspired shape: neck feels too long and balance was not ideal). So I ended up ordering a different bass that will be much much more what I really want. It's a custom order so it's still 'unseen', but every custom order will be. However, I was able to get as many details that mattered to me hammered down as possible, especially defining the neck profile, and I'll end up with a bass I could not really order online. I mean, I could, but it would have been a completely blind purchase. The sales guy helped a lot in my decision. 

Physical shops can be extremely useful, but I don't think they can subsist the way they operated in past decades. They need to reinvent themselves a little, and that personal service is the obvious place where they can offer something that no online shop ever can. The question is whether there's a market big enough.

[Lozz196]

13 hours ago, TheGreek said:

The next nearest shop would have been Hemel Hempstead (Lozz's stomping ground). The owner was a Bass player and a nice fella but couldn't compete with the internet.

Shame really as he was one of the Good Guys.

Agree Mick, the internet was his demise, his prices weren`t bad, but you could do better online. Instruments weren`t too bad, it was stuff like strings where he was really under cut.

The other local-ish shop to me is CODA in Stevenage, and they`ve been there for years. Admittedly I`ve not been over there for a while but they were always incredibly good to deal with, very knowledgeable and never pushy in trying to get a sale.

Edited May 11, 2019 by Lozz196

[mentalextra]

13 hours ago, AndyTravis said:

Well, guitar shops paid my mortgage for a number of years.

From my perspective a few things.

Yes, the internet is the big issue.

1. A warehouse with boxes guitars/amps etc is vastly cheaper to run from a website than a chain or even singular shop.

2. Big chain guitar shops need to shift units so the service suffers hugely (the chain I worked for now no longer offer a repair/restring service) which means people aren’t interested in going.

3. The big brands need to shift units...so go with the big chains with ridiculous dealership demands. I think the last buy in for a Gibson dealership was £35k. Small chains cannot do this.

4. The markup/margin/breadwinner is accessories - see point 1. A website for accessories once set up will run itself. 40-50% margin on branded strings and accessories, own brand/Chinese import accessories 60-75% - again, smaller stores haven’t got that buying power. You don’t need to ‘try out’ regular slinkies, so you don’t need the experience - you just buy them 15% cheaper online...

5. Second hand...a shop will buy a £200 retail bass for £100 as a part ex. Why would you part ex for £100 when you can sell it yourself for £180/£200 on eBay/Shpock/Gumtree/Facebook/Basschat. So the shops used to be more varied, and interesting - now they’re not.

6. Trend. It’s actually not that cool to be a muso at the minute. In the 80’s/90’s music was a bigger deal. Kids now don’t want it like we did.

7. Money. I haven’t bought a new (from a shop) bass in the 5 years I’ve not worked in a music shop. See point 5 - why buy new when there’s a glut of cheap second hand gear online...see point six...less buyers, more gear...

I could go on...think that covers most of it.

 

You've nailed it!

I feel that the only way high street music shops can survive is by providing genuine customer service and/or by obtaining unique/vintage used stock. The big online box shifters cannot compete. That said, online shopping is changing the high street whether we like it or not.

Why is online shopping always seen as 'bad/evil' and local high street shops seen as good, honest and wholesome?

[NikNik]

15 hours ago, Quilly said:

Are online stores killing small music stores? Where I live (south of ROI) guitar stores barely last a wet weekend before folding. There’s about 4-5 establishments in the south east that manage to stay afloat . Is this the same in the UK?

Where are you in Roi? Dublin had a few (what's that big guitar shop?), inc those fellas who deal in vintage gear, Some Neck. I was in Galway a couple of years back and saw a couple. Moloney's had some good stuff,  albeit trad.

Blackrock Music, up near Dundalk, is a shadow of its former self.

[Leonard Smalls]

13 hours ago, 3below said:

Mid Wales Music, Newtown. 

I bought a lovely Sandberg there a few years ago. They're very helpful and always have interesting stock.

We've got an excellent local music shop, though much better for guitarists. There's an enormous room full of handmade acoustics, ancient Fenders and Gibsons at £000s plus handbuilt crazy stuff. They survive by selling online as there's not enough musos in Powys!

https://www.knightonmusiccentre.com/

[Guest oZZma]

1 hour ago, chris_b said:

A bricks and mortar music shop will survive in the short term if it has a successful online store behind it. I used to think the only shops that would survive in the town center were those that the internet couldn't kill, ie food and drinks, but the online delivery companies are now trying to put them out of business now. As usual the Governmental hasn't a clue or just doesn't care about the issues that are killing the high street that they aren't even on the same continent let alone page.

Supermarkets started the decline of independent shops. My son was nearly 18 before he went into a butchers shop That was with me. He's probably never been in one since. I go out into the world to shop, because I'm old and old fashioned, but the kids don't so the high street will continue to wither.

In the end I can't see all this "democracy" coming out of the internet. IMO it brought more a concentration of power that is like an economic dictatorship. 

Edited May 11, 2019 by oZZma

[Woodinblack]

We have new music shop where I live but I dont' go in often as it is mostly guitars and the few basses they have are fenders. I don't know how shops survive.

If I wanted to get a new bass or look at them I used to go to the PMT shop in bristol but now they don't put the prices on them so I can't tell whats what, so I have lost interest in looking on them - in fact, I was there last weekend, looked around the basses, a few had prices, just the discounts, so I looked, lost interested and went and played on the keyboards.

I am in a way surprised that there isn't a good music shop somewhere where they have some instruments set up and also a coffee shop or something where musicians can hang out, it would make it more of a social thing (and the coffee might pay for the shop to run better than the guitars). They could put informal gigs on, or mic nights etc. Trouble is you need some space but I can't see a way that a purely music shop could survive

[visog]

Agree with much of this thread and I posted a similar one about Dawsons closing in Warrington and Altrincham a couple of months back. I'd add that we should value the bass specialists: Bass Direct, Bass Gallery and Bass Lounge to name but three all the more.