Are Beaters the Weights on Ronaldo’s Ankles?

[DoubleOhStephan]

I’m genuinely not sure what my views are on this, so forgive me if it’s an incoherent rambling of stuff and nonsense.

Inspired by the “Bass for beginner” post by @Ant1972…

There are fairly regular posts on the forum from new bass players asking advice on what’s the best first bass for them to buy. The advice given is generally pretty unanimous, seemingly unarguable, sometimes a little contradictory but certainly always all well-meaning.

I’ve noted that the general consensus is (but not limited) to - buy the best you can for your budget; choose one of the bigger brands (and best models within that brand); try lots before you buy; get a good setup; choose a comfortable body shape; avoid basses with neck dive etc…

Then, to a lesser extent, new players are asked to consider (among other things) - what style of music they want to play; what is their ambition as a bassist (bedroom to rock star); what style of bass do they prefer (modern or vintage); what tone are they trying to achieve etc…

Finally, there’s the potentially contradictory advice about - do/don’t emulate their favourite player; choose active/passive; choose short/long scale etc…

To musicians with a few years’ experience under their belts, that all sounds like good, solid and sensible advice. After all, if you were starting to play from scratch now, that’s exactly the advice you’d give yourself.

But…

I recently saw a clip of Rio Ferdinand talking to Man Utd academy players about a young Cristiano Ronaldo, who he said, would endlessly practice stepovers with “mad” weights attached to his ankles.

That got me to thinking…

Consider, if you will, the Sea Turtle (bear with me, there is a point to all this)...

Baby Sea Turtles have an exceptionally hard start to life. First, they have to break out of a shell and dig themselves out of a deep sand pit. Then they face an epic journey (well, epic for a baby turtle) across the beach, avoiding predation, to make it to the sea. Where they face more predation and will, in all likelihood, die.

Obviously, the reason Ronaldo practiced with ankle weights so that, without that extra weight, his feet would feel lighter and be able to move at ridiculous speed, bamboozling defenders. Adult Sea Turtles really do have to be the fittest in order to survive.

Now, my first bass as a 14yo boy was a 1980’s Marlin Sidewinder Precision copy. Looking back, it was pretty awful. It had a big fat neck, terrible balance, high action and bland tone. But it was all I could afford and I played it almost every day for a year.

My next bass was a brand new 1990’s Aria Pro II. Now I had a bass with a slim, fast neck and low action. It sat on the strap with really good balance and compared to the Marlin, was an absolute breeze to play.

I found that (although I didn’t realise it at the time), because my left hand was so used to doing all that extra work of holding up the neck and pressing hard on the strings, I’d developed a natural hand speed, finger strength and increased stamina which helped massively as I developed as a bassist. Unfortunately, I had to quit playing just as I hit my stride at 18 (long story) and by the time I started again in my late 30’s, all that was long gone. But anyway…

If, as seems to be the consensus, the high quality of new, cheap instruments is a relatively recent phenomenon, I’m led to wonder if musicians who are now in their 30’s and older would have also started with cheap and nasty beaters, so would have had to overcome the same hurdles and as a result, developed the same core strengths.

So, finally, to the point!

Is it actually a benefit (or even an essential) for a new player to start off on a low-quality instrument? By having new players avoid the inadequacies of a beater, are they actually missing out on a key stage of early development which could potentially delay or even harm their growth as a bassist, particularly of the arguably most important fretting hand?

Are beaters actually and in fact, the weights on Ronaldo’s ankles? 

Look forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

[Dood]

Well, there's a bit more to a learner-beater than high action as you have mentioned - so, it could be possible that the action alone was enough to provide additional exercise for the muscles, but bad necks, rough fret work, poor tone, boat-anchor weight and general unplayability I would say in my experience as a teacher is an impedance to progress. Students have actually said they would have given up a long time ago if they had  to carry on playing the "examples" they were told to endure at school. 

That said, there is no doubt that after playing my high action bass for a week teaching, my gig bass feels like it has guitar strings on in comparison. Both basses are decent tools though. 

[thodrik]

Ronaldo may have practised with weights on his ankles, but he never played football with rubber boots. 

To me, the equivalent of Ronaldo wearing weights would be practising on heavy gauge strings with a high action and then switching to light strings and low action. However I would pretty much agree with the concept that it can sometimes be worth starting on a 'adequate' starter bass so that you can really appreciate the switch up to a 'good' bass. 

In my opinion, the main thing is to get a new player to start off on any instrument that they enjoy playing. Yes, a horrible bass might put a player off if it is completely unplayable or just doesn't work. However, a half decent, functional instrument secured second hand from a mate/gumtree/family member/BC market place is often all you need to get someone 'hooked' on the concept of playing a bass. 
 

[Stylon Pilson]

I think that far more bass players will either (a) develop bad technique, or (b) lose interest completely as a result of trying to play a badly-made bass.

Examining your situation, when you upgraded to the Aria after a year, you noticed that you played better than on the Marlin, and you attribute this to having had to "pay your dues" on the Marlin. But there's absolutely no evidence to support this. It's just as likely that you still would have developed that speed, strength and stamina if you'd been playing the Aria from the start.

S.P.

[Dood]

I still have my Marlin Sidewinder. It was a P/HB and the neck is a skinny jazz neck. Yes, the body was ply and I upgraded the pickups, but I guess I got lucky, it was actually quite a good player after I set it up properly (I was 13!)

[DoubleOhStephan]

10 minutes ago, Dood said:

Well, there's a bit more to a learner-beater than high action as you have mentioned - so, it could be possible that the action alone was enough to provide additional exercise for the muscles, but bad necks, rough fret work, poor tone, boat-anchor weight and general unplayability I would say in my experience as a teacher is an impedance to progress. Students have actually said they would have given up a long time ago if they had  to carry on playing the "examples" they were told to endure at school. 

That said, there is no doubt that after playing my high action bass for a week teaching, my gig bass feels like it has guitar strings on in comparison. Both basses are decent tools though. 

Yep, it had a big fat neck and terrible balance. It wasn't unplayable, but by today's standard would be considered a bit of a dog. 

The question isn't about trying to put people off although I can definitely see how it would, rather it's about whether having to overcome the issues of a crappy bass are actually beneficial. 

[DoubleOhStephan]

13 minutes ago, thodrik said:

Ronaldo may have practised with weights on his ankles, but he never played football with rubber boots. 

To me, the equivalent of Ronaldo wearing weights would be practising on heavy gauge strings with a high action and then switching to light strings and low action. However I would pretty much agree with the concept that it can sometimes be worth starting on a 'adequate' starter bass so that you can really appreciate the switch up to a 'good' bass. 

In my opinion, the main thing is to get a new player to start off on any instrument that they enjoy playing. Yes, a horrible bass might put a player off if it is completely unplayable or just doesn't work. However, a half decent, functional instrument secured second hand from a mate/gumtree/family member/BC market place is often all you need to get someone 'hooked' on the concept of playing a bass. 
 

Haha well you never know, he may have had a pair of wellies for Sunday kickabouts 😊

From my own experience, I didn't know what a bass was supposed to play like, my enjoyment was from playing with my mates in our band. That's what hooked me tbh

[DoubleOhStephan]

15 minutes ago, Stylon Pilson said:

I think that far more bass players will either (a) develop bad technique, or (b) lose interest completely as a result of trying to play a badly-made bass.

Examining your situation, when you upgraded to the Aria after a year, you noticed that you played better than on the Marlin, and you attribute this to having had to "pay your dues" on the Marlin. But there's absolutely no evidence to support this. It's just as likely that you still would have developed that speed, strength and stamina if you'd been playing the Aria from the start.

S.P.

You may be right, but there are an awful lot of examples of having to pay your dues and that being an essential component to the finished article. 

[DoubleOhStephan]

15 minutes ago, Dood said:

I still have my Marlin Sidewinder. It was a P/HB and the neck is a skinny jazz neck. Yes, the body was ply and I upgraded the pickups, but I guess I got lucky, it was actually quite a good player after I set it up properly (I was 13!)

Maybe I had the Friday afternoon model 😁

[Stylon Pilson]

32 minutes ago, StevieE said:

You may be right, but there are an awful lot of examples of having to pay your dues and that being an essential component to the finished article. 

I don't disagree that you hear the story a lot, but that's because it's a story that people like to tell. Doesn't make it true.

S.P.

[cheddatom]

I played nothing but 6 string basses for about 5 years. My bass broke at a gig and so I begged a bass from another bassist and he loaned me a 4 string for our set. I was instantly way faster on my left hand

...but I don't think it's a good idea to recommend beginners use a bass that's very difficult to play, because it might put them off, and more importantly might give them RSI or some other injury 

[oldslapper]

Ronaldo using weights on his ankles during training is an intentional act, for a specific purpose. But he knows that when he plays a game (a gig) he will playing without weights, and with light boots.

The equivalent would be to use those sprung loaded individual finger trainers to build up stamina, strength and individual finger dexterity, knowing that you’ll be playing a bass that’s comfortable to play when gigging.

IMHO natch. 

 

[DoubleOhStephan]

46 minutes ago, Stylon Pilson said:

I don't disagree that you hear the story a lot, but that's because it's a story that people like to tell. Doesn't make it true.

S.P.

I guess it depends on how you look at it, it's definitely true in nature. 

Think about this way. If you consider high altitude training, athletes do this even though its much harder as they know they'll gain an advantage later on when back at sea level. 

Maybe playing a poorer quality bass for a 12 month is like high altitude training, really hard at first, but you'll see the benefits when you upgrade. 

[DoubleOhStephan]

26 minutes ago, cheddatom said:

I played nothing but 6 string basses for about 5 years. My bass broke at a gig and so I begged a bass from another bassist and he loaned me a 4 string for our set. I was instantly way faster on my left hand

...but I don't think it's a good idea to recommend beginners use a bass that's very difficult to play, because it might put them off, and more importantly might give them RSI or some other injury 

That's a really interesting point. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone recommend that a new player starts on a 5 or 6 string bass, or even a fretless. 

Not sure about the rsi thing, can't you get an injury playing a high quality bass if your technique is bad? I'd even argue that playing a bass with high action and neck dive could prevent injury as you're building up more core strength.

[DoubleOhStephan]

24 minutes ago, oldslapper said:

Ronaldo using weights on his ankles during training is an intentional act, for a specific purpose. But he knows that when he plays a game (a gig) he will playing without weights, and with light boots.

The equivalent would be to use those sprung loaded individual finger trainers to build up stamina, strength and individual finger dexterity, knowing that you’ll be playing a bass that’s comfortable to play when gigging.

IMHO natch. 

 

Yeah, exactly. Should that be something that new players do on purpose knowing that it's encouraging strength and dexterity? 

Its even better than a finger spring thing because you're actually using the instrument at the same time, so when you do upgrade it's not unfamiliar at all, just easier. 

[cheddatom]

1 minute ago, StevieE said:

That's a really interesting point. I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone recommend that a new player starts on a 5 or 6 string bass, or even a fretless. 

Not sure about the rsi thing, can't you get an injury playing a high quality bass if your technique is bad? I'd even argue that playing a bass with high action and neck dive could prevent injury as you're building up more core strength.

I just imagine that playing too hard is how I ended up with lots of pain in my hands and wrists, and that if I'd started on a bass with a lower action I might have developed a better technique than the neanderthal one I've adopted 

[DoubleOhStephan]

Just now, cheddatom said:

I just imagine that playing too hard is how I ended up with lots of pain in my hands and wrists, and that if I'd started on a bass with a lower action I might have developed a better technique than the neanderthal one I've adopted 

You could be absolutely right, but what about this... 

If a golfer learns how to swing a club incorrectly at the start, it wouldn't make any difference to their technique if they have cheapo or really expensive clubs. It's the technique that is the problem, not the club.

[cheddatom]

2 minutes ago, StevieE said:

You could be absolutely right, but what about this... 

If a golfer learns how to swing a club incorrectly at the start, it wouldn't make any difference to their technique if they have cheapo or really expensive clubs. It's the technique that is the problem, not the club.

of course! But if they're learning without instruction and they have the heaviest club, they'll put a lot of effort in, as that's required by the weight of the club. If they have the lightest club, they'll put less effort in. This is just my assumption, but I would have thought, the less effort, the less chance of injury, as there's less force involved overall

 

[DoubleOhStephan]

5 minutes ago, cheddatom said:

of course! But if they're learning without instruction and they have the heaviest club, they'll put a lot of effort in, as that's required by the weight of the club. If they have the lightest club, they'll put less effort in. This is just my assumption, but I would have thought, the less effort, the less chance of injury, as there's less force involved overall

 

Hmmm... Don't know. I feel like a heavy club should theoretically require less effort (at least on the downswing) as the additional weight will create its own force and cause it to swing faster on its own..? Dunno, I can't play golf for toffee, but I do know that part of my inability was I tried to hit the ball too hard, rather than let the club do the work, like a hammer or a saw. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by StevieE
Spelling

[cheddatom]

4 minutes ago, StevieE said:

Hmmm... Don't know. I feel like a heavy club should theoretically require less effort (at least on the downswing) as the additional weight will create its own force and cause it to swing faster on its own..? Dunno, I can't play golf for toffee, but I do know that part of my inability was I tried to hit the ball too hard, rather than let the club do the work, like a hammer or a saw. 

If you try to hit the ball hard with a heavy club, you will put more force on your body than if you try to hit the ball hard with a light club, more force = more chance of injury? I dunno, I've never played golf

[DoubleOhStephan]

Just now, cheddatom said:

If you try to hit the ball hard with a heavy club, you will put more force on your body than if you try to hit the ball hard with a light club, more force = more chance of injury? I dunno, I've never played golf

Haha guess we should both stick to playing bass eh? 😁

[cheddatom]

1 minute ago, StevieE said:

Haha guess we should both stick to playing bass eh? 😁

hah, indeed. It's interesting to me though. I started on basses with very high action and just learned to fret and pluck very hard to get the sound I wanted. I assume that technique is what's given me the problems I have now. Having said that it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume it'd also given me more strength than if I'd started on a low action bass.

[DoubleOhStephan]

1 minute ago, cheddatom said:

hah, indeed. It's interesting to me though. I started on basses with very high action and just learned to fret and pluck very hard to get the sound I wanted. I assume that technique is what's given me the problems I have now. Having said that it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume it'd also given me more strength than if I'd started on a low action bass.

It definitely could be and I honestly wouldn't be surprised if it was the cause. As I say in the OP, I have no idea about this, I'm debating myself as much as everyone who's replied so far. 

I actually play with a very light touch now and a super low action, but I can't decide if that's because I took such a long break and have forgotten everything I learnt as teen. I did suffer a lot of pain in my left wrist when I first started playing again, but because of that long break, I don't know if I'd still have suffered if I'd continued. I personally think it was fatigue and more practice seems to have cured it. 

[scalpy]

A anecdote I heard was that Jaco himself had a P with monster strings and high action for this very purpose. Never seen it quoted anywhere else mind. It’s a strategy I’ve used on occasion- I have an acoustic it takes a G clamp to hold a note on and it certainly makes my electric basses seem like a breeze. But whether it’s a sensible option for beginners is another question as the more experienced player has had the opportunity to gradually condition their playing physique and good technique. I’d fear a beginner would end up trying brute force and hurting themselves. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by scalpy
Missed a word

[TheGreek]

Interesting reading...

I would say that you are successful "despite" starting on a crappy bass, not "because" of it.

You probably had to "unlearn" all the errors in your technique which you developed because of the badly put together bass. You could probably blame the poor quality guitars which sit in the corner of people's rooms for there not being more great guitarists.