The Box PA Speakers

[paul_c2]

Google "gain staging" - it explains what to do when you have several (volume) controls, how to adjust them optimally. The wikipedia article is a good start:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain_stage

[RichardH]

10 hours ago, BobBracker2222 said:

Im finding it quite confusing what you are all saying!
There are 3 volume control

the knob on the speakers
The LED screen on the speakers (which is set to zero db by default when you power it up)
And the "main mix" leaver on my mixer (which I have had set to zero db for recording purposes)

For live performance which one should I adjust for volume?

zero dB on the desk it way too loud - that is the reference level, not zero volume.

Here is a step by step walkthrough of what I would do:

Make sure the speakers are powered down. 

On the mixer

Slide the Main Mix slider right down to the bottom - infinity. This will mute any sound from coming from the mixer out to the speakers.

Set the Gain for the microphone. First off turn it right off (fully anticlockwise)  before plugging a mic in (this is just reading from the mixer's manual - you don't really need to do this if the speakers are not powered up). Once the mic is plugged in, test singing into the mic as loud as you would normally and gradually increase the gain knob just below the mic input on the mixer (of course you won't hear any sound coming from the speakers - we are just adjusting the mixer at this point!) As soon as the clip light (down next to the PAN control on the same strip as the mic input) starts coming on, turn the gain down a bit. You have now set your mic input level. The input gain is the first aspect of controlling volume. If it is turned up too high, the sound will distort (clip). 

Set all the other controls on the input strip to 12 o'clock (the 0 position). You will see that you have a three band EQ (high/mid/low) on there - more on this later. At the very bottom is the LEVEL control. This is the volume control for this channel, and the second aspect of controlling volume. Leave this at 0 (12 o'clock) for now. If you are using more than one channel, this knob can be used to adjust the relative volume of each channel - so if you have vocals and guitar and you think the vocals are not loud enough, you can turn down (anticlockwise) the guitar level. 

The main mix slider is used to control the overall volume when performing - i.e. once you have the relative levels of vocals and guitar (or whatever) set via the individual channels, the main mix slider will increaser or decrease the overall sound. We will come back to it in a moment - leave it slid down to the bottom for now though. This is the third aspect of controlling volume.

So in summary, you have three ways to control volume on the mixer - input gain, level and main mix.Hopefully you will see that they each have a different purpose.

On the speaker

Set the line input knob to 0dB - this is the max recommended level. You would only need to change this if you find that the main mix slider is too sensitive (i.e. a small slide up gives a massive increase in volume) - in which case you could turn the level down a bit (anticlockwise).

Power up the speakers.

Looking at the manual, the LED controls are all for DSP - the sound processing - not volume - so here is how I would set each of them

MODE Selecting an EQ preset:  > set to ‘MUSIC’ or ‘LIVE’
LOCATION Selecting a location preset: > set to ‘NORMAL’ 
HIGH EQ Raising / lowering the high EQ frequencies in a range –12 dB … +12 dB > set to 0dB
MID EQ Raising / lowering the mid EQ frequencies in a range –12 dB … +12 dB > set to 0dB
LOW EQ Raising / lowering the low EQ frequencies in a range –12 dB … +12dB > set to 0dB
SUB High Pass Filter (low cut) settings  > set to OFF
DELAY Signal delay settings > set to OFF

...the three EQ items are basically tone controls - so if you want more bass, turn the Low EQ up to (say) +6dB. If you want less treble, turn the High EQ down to (say) -3dB. You need to use your ears to decide, but I would just set them all flat. Remember you can do this on the mixer anyway which will be a lot easier to do than going fiddling around on the back of the speaker. I would leave this completely alone until you feel like investigating further - they are all "nice to haves" but you don't need to touch them at this stage. Get comfortable with the basics first.

Now you have the speakers powered up and set correctly, slide the main mix slider on the mixer up gradually until you start hearing yourself through the mic. Use this main mix slider to control your volume when performing.

 

 

Edited June 5, 2019 by RichardH

[Dan Dare]

Bob. Please listen to what a number of us have said and get someone who knows what they are doing to talk/walk you through this in person.

Richard's advice above is excellent, but - and I am not attempting to offend or insult you - it's obvious that you are a complete novice and that you cannot understand what he or any of us are saying (you state above that you find our advice confusing. The "whistling" sound you refer to is feedback, btw). It's pointless our attempting to explain things when you lack the knowledge to understand the terms we are using. The only way is to get someone who knows what they are doing to show you how and explain/answer your questions in person.

[BobBracker2222]

18 hours ago, RichardH said:

zero dB on the desk it way too loud - that is the reference level, not zero volume........

Yes good advice thanks, but I need to keep reading it over and over again

14 hours ago, Dan Dare said:

 get someone who knows what they are doing to talk/walk you through this in person.

Easyer said then done (as I mentioned before)

 

You see the mixer is all kind of set up really
A sound engineer was telling me on a singing site before on another forum when I was using it for recording into my laptop

As you can see in the diagram

no. 18 is tape in which is an mp4 file being played from another laptop using a program called VLC media player, the volume for that input channel is controlled via the laptop its self before it enters the mixer

no. 1 is mic in and I have balanced the with no. 3 gain with the no.8 level, bough are set at 5/8 turned counter clockwise

no. 4 is the EQ and I have the high EQ turned up to full and the low EQ down right down

no. 6 is the FX and to the right of the mixer 27 is the channel control and LCD to let you choice which patch you want. below in the link, it shows a list of all the channels/ patches available and I have selected channel 23 vocal plate reverb https://www.scribd.com/doc/190081638/Behringer-XENYX-1002FX-Effects

no. 17 is the main volume and he said to set it to zero and use the LEDs on no. 25 as a guide to adjust your tape in/ mp3 against microphone, and when the maximum volume of the music goes above the zero or green LEDs marked as green and goes into the yellow turn it down by the channel

no. 18 is for out and goes into my audio interface which goes into my other laptop which is recording its sound and video at the same time from a web cam.

The plan is to record myself (as described above) and play music at the same time though my PA speakers, so I don't really want to drop the main volume on my mixer because I will loose recording volume, so would be best doing it all though the speakers if I can

I will try and upload the video later to see if you think it needs any adjustments

So that's it really, the mixer is all set up for good home recording, but just needs the volume set up on the speakers depending on the size of venue I gig

[RichardH]

It sounds like you have got the mixer sorted thanks to the advice you've been given elsewhere.

However, I wouldn't have the EQ set like you have (" high EQ turned up to full and the low EQ down right down"), but you can play with that to suit your voice and the music. You must use the main volume level (17) to control the volume - especially if the speakers are also set to that level. I suspect the advice re setting the main volume on the mixer to zero was because the person giving that advice was expecting you to connect the mixer outputs to a recording device (e.g. sound card on your PC or some other recording device) - which (re-reading your post) I think you are actually doing. So are you using the PA speakers (when recording) just so that you can hear yourself? I understand why you want the main output level at the reference point now. 

However, in this scenario there are a couple of alternatives.

1 - don't use the speakers - plug headphones into the mixer (PHONES socket just to the right of 15), and use the PHONES/CONTROL ROOM knob(16) to adjust the level in the phones to the correct volume.

2 - use the speakers, but plug them into the CTRL ROOM OUT sockets. See diagram on page 9 of the Xenyx 1202FX manual. Again you then control volume with the PHONES/CONTROL ROOM knob(16).

3 - carry on like you are, but use the level knob on the speakers to set the volume, as that is the only place you can control it - if you set it to the 0dB level you will likely get feedback (the screeching you mention), deafen yourself and probably have the neighbours banging on the walls.

Finally, may I ask why you have come over to this bass playing forum to ask for more advice? Why not continue on the singing forum where you got the initial advice?

 

Edited June 6, 2019 by RichardH

[BreadBin]

Having the high frequency turned up is quite likely the source of the feedback (screeching)

[RichardH]

1 hour ago, BreadBin said:

Having the high frequency turned up is quite likely the source of the feedback (screeching)

Good point! 

[Dan Dare]

4 hours ago, BobBracker2222 said:

Easyer said then done (as I mentioned before)

We can only offer suggestions. It's up to you whether you accept them. The problem is that you don't have a sufficient level of understanding to appreciate good advice, such as that above from Richard. It's just going straight over your head. Perhaps you  hope that if you keep asking, a different, possibly easier to understand, response that is more to your liking will materialise.

Once again, you need either to get someone who knows what they are talking about to go through it with you. This is not difficult , despite your comment above, provided of course you are happy to pay someone for their time (perhaps that is the sticking point for you). Either that or read up on the topic. There are a plenty of books/online tutorials that will help - you'll have to do your own research about those, but Google is your first port of call. I fear we are wasting our time here. Did (perhaps this may be a possible answer to Richard's question above) those on the singing forum to which you refer lose patience with you?

[BobBracker2222]

On 05/06/2019 at 23:12, RichardH said:

1 - don't use the speakers - plug headphones into the mixer (PHONES socket just to the right of 15), and use the PHONES/CONTROL ROOM knob(16) to adjust the level in the phones to the correct volume.

I had the head phones plugging into the phones socket on the mixer when I did the video

**video removed, no longer serves a purpose**

 

Edited June 8, 2019 by BobBracker2222
video removed, no longer serves a purpose

[BobBracker2222]

3 hours ago, RichardH said:

3 - carry on like you are, but use the level knob on the speakers to set the volume, as that is the only place you can control it - if you set it to the 0dB level you will likely get feedback (the screeching you mention), deafen yourself and probably have the neighbours banging on the walls.

 

I only tested the speakers for a breif moment with no sound from the mixer going though them when I got the screeching sound, but will experiment with it again using the high EQ knob. The video was NOT recorded using the speakers!

[BobBracker2222]

3 hours ago, RichardH said:

Finally, may I ask why you have come over to this bass playing forum to ask for more advice? Why not continue on the singing forum where you got the initial advice?

The singing forum is not very good! I only go the answered from one person who is no allways on there

[paul_c2]

That mixer is very basic, but has enough to do what you want to do. 

If you want to use it for live sound AND recording at the same time, there are 2 options I see:

1. Connect the MAIN OUT to your active speakers; and the recorder to either the CTRL ROOM OUT or PHONES socket. One is a pair of mono 1/4" TS, the other is a stereo 1/4" by the looks of it. This means that you can use the slider to quickly/easily adjust the live sound out to the PA, and the Phones/Control Room knob to adjust the recording level separately if needs be (it would need to be turned up a bit...not at -infinity, obviously).

2. Connect the 2-track OUT (the pair of RCA connectors) to the recorder. You might need an adapter for this. Also, it seems to be a fixed level, it doesn't have its own level control. It is probably fixed to the main output slider. Given that there's no separate level, and you'd need an adapter, I'd personally not recommend it be used. This would leave either the main out (or if you really wanted to, the CTRL ROOM OUT/Phones - but I don't see why???) to connect to the speakers.

Basically, the mixer has so few outputs and controls that you might need to use an output that isn't labelled/intended/documented in the manual, for recording at the same time.

[Alec]

Of course this is the wrong place, but everyone's just a bit too helpful for their own good.

All this started on SoundOnSound.com, moved to GearSlutz, now sadly here...

[BassBunny]

1 minute ago, Alec said:

Of course this is the wrong place, but everyone's just a bit too helpful for their own good.

All this started on SoundOnSound.com, moved to GearSlutz, now sadly here...

But have we moved on in any way?

[Alec]

2 minutes ago, BassBunny said:

But have we moved on in any way?

Trust me - you won't...

[BobBracker2222]

.

Edited June 8, 2019 by BobBracker2222

[BobBracker2222]

7 hours ago, BassBunny said:

But have we moved on in any way?

Well considering I started out with no gear what so ever (just me, my mp3/4s player, and scores) before I joined said other dubious forums, then definitely!

Anyway thanks for the help everyone

And see you on stage

[Tubster]

Folks - something seems wrong here. A lot of people have gone to a lot of trouble to explain things but as the OP claims not to understand any of it, it seems s/he is no further on. 

If this is genuine, I would be very surprised 😮 but if it is - go get SOMEONE TO SHOW YOU! 

Hats off to all the patient BC members but my troll detection meter is showing 99%!

[Dan Dare]

You took the words out of my mouth, Tubster. My meter broke...

[paul_c2]

"You can take a horse to water but a pencil must be lead"

[Mudpup]

Bob, you know theres a gentleman's agreement on this site that the original poster pays £1 for each response don't you??? 😉 The invoice will be incoming......

Seriously, and no offence intended, you should have gone to a local shop and paid a few quid extra to buy locally and use the advice and service that would have been offered in the purchase discussions. This is all that is wrong about buying based on price on the internet - its ok if you think you know what you are doing but a minefield if you don't. And you cant put a price on face to face advice and local support.

I hope you get your speakers sorted....

Love and snuggles.......

Edited June 9, 2019 by Mudpup

[Phil Starr]

Bob, I hope you manage to get your gear sorted and you grow to love it. In the end it is the music that matters and the gear is the means to make that happen, good luck.

 

[BassBunny]

On 08/06/2019 at 00:08, Alec said:

Of course this is the wrong place, but everyone's just a bit too helpful for their own good.

All this started on SoundOnSound.com, moved to GearSlutz, now sadly here...

This posting from @Alec probably explains all. 

[paul_c2]

Is this it?

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=65981

[Stub Mandrel]

Check out the video the lad posted above.

He's a youngster who obviously has no technical background.

Looking back at this thread and the soundonsound one it's pretty obvious that every time he asks a 'simple' question he gets long answers that make him, in his uncertainty and insecurity, start worrying about other issues.

I feel sorry for the guy, he's branded a troll when I can't help feeling its the '15" speakers are for discos' and 'you need to look at the SPL not the wattage' posts that are putting him in a spin.

The Thomann boxes are ideal for what he wants to do, the only advice he needs is to find someone who will help him set it up to suit his style.