Joe Bonamassa on in-ear monitors

[Dudgeman]

40 minutes ago, gjones said:

I understand Mr Bonamassa's point of view, that the sound of his amp, driven to a certain level, creates his particular sound and when he's asked to turn down by the sound engineer, he can no longer get that sound.

On the other hand we have bass players, including me, who spend a fortune on getting the best amp and cab that we can afford, then allow the sound engineer to take a DI (usually pre EQ) from our very, expensive amp, straight to the front of house desk, without a squeak of protest.

Hmmmmm?

 

I used to run 2 Marshall 7400s one through a 4x10 one through a 2x15. Multiple effects through both in order to replicate Muse bass tones when doing out tribute. The sounds out of the speakers were about 90% dead on but every gig would be the same..Sound engineer...."Chuck this in your DI bud" Me.." Sorry DI's don't work you need to Mic the cabs" Sound engineer " I only DI bass" Me " Its no good using DI the sounds I have spent hours setting up include the Speakers" and so the ever repetitive stand off would ensue... In the end I gave up arguing with SEs ..and if you look at our YouTube footage you can see that hardly one of them ever got my sound right...In fact I can't watch our YouTube footage it annoys me that much. We used IEs but in the end only for the click...I found them too sterile which is probably my bad but our on stage volume was only ever as loud as the drummer... 

but I totally agree ..Why do sound Engineers think that DIs are perfectly acceptable for bass sounds? Pretty sure you would never DI a guitar amp...

Hmmmmmmm x2! 

[EBS_freak]

Quick question - if this was an ongoing problem, why didn’t you seek to change what you were doing such that you could get the sound that you are looking for foh from your DI?

You know the saying, “insanity is the doing the Same thing again and again and expecting different results”.

As for foh mixing bass cabs, they are a source of mayhem for on stage as the frequencies, unlike a guitar, are omnidirectional - meaning that pretty much every mic on stage will pick up what you are doing. In turn that will destroy what you can do with the foh mix.

I don’t understand why band don’t work towards doing the best for the sound of the band as a whole instead of just looking at what they bring to the party. It’s the sum of the component parts which make the band sounds the way it does - and that means that there could be some compromises along the way. A lot of bands will actually see the sound engineer as part of the band lineup - especially as they can make or break your sound. They know what’s best for FOH (especially if you are a visitor to their venue) so work with them.

It’s the sound engineers reputation as much as yours. If your band sounds stinky poo because of what you are doing and not the sound engineer, that’s not really fair on them is it?

Are you really doing any venues where you require those size of cabinets?*

 

* it’s rhetorical.  You aren’t. Nobody is. It’s just stage dressing.

And as for only being as loud as the drummer, you do know that there’s loud drummers and quiet drummers... and Quiet drums and loud drums... (and cymbals)...?

 

 

[Beer of the Bass]

Oh dear, have we drifted into the old "miking bass cabs" discussion? I played at Nice n' Sleazy in Glasgow a few weeks ago, and was surprised that the house sound guy put a mic on the my bass amp, with no DI, without even discussing it.  Perhaps he spotted my Ampeg PF50T and figured I might want some amp colouration, or perhaps so many bassists in an indie venue like that are using overdriven sounds that it's easier to mic them, I don't know. 
But otherwise, I don't bother asking about a mic any more.  It's nice if they do, but I can also give them a post power-amp DI from the Ampeg, or just a straight DI with LPF to tame my fuzz pedal if it's a gig with shared backline and limited setup time.  For the kind of situations we play I'd rather the sound guys spent their time getting the vocals right than arguing the toss with me over my bass sound!

 

 

[stingrayPete1977]

I still can't understand why bass players think their high end expensive bass amp has a better EQ than a much higher end much more expensive PA system. 

[Doctor J]

The sound guy usually gets snotty when you head over to their desk to dial in your sound, though 😃

Edited June 9, 2019 by Doctor J

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I still can't understand why bass players think their high end expensive bass amp has a better EQ than a much higher end much more expensive PA system. 

Ignorance and/or ego.

[Beer of the Bass]

1 hour ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I still can't understand why bass players think their high end expensive bass amp has a better EQ than a much higher end much more expensive PA system. 

Though one could make that same argument about the EQ in active basses, particularly as those are usually limited to battery power...

[stingrayPete1977]

9 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

Though one could make that same argument about the EQ in active basses, particularly as those are usually limited to battery power...

Certainly, if I was full time pro and the sound crew got me a perfect FOH and in ear mix with the knobs in a certain spot I'd happily let them glue them in place. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by stingrayPete1977

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

3 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I still can't understand why bass players think their high end expensive bass amp has a better EQ than a much higher end much more expensive PA system. 

Ignorance and/or ego.

It worries me, this.

No-one, absolutely no-one, fails to recognise that  the sound of the amp is as essential to guitarist's sound as the guitar itself.

Yet bass players are supposed to abdicate their sound to 'what the soundman thinks is best'?

The relative cost and quality of the kit is irrelevant; it's the sound you get that matters and if you have spent a great deal of effort to get a sound that suits your style, the music you play and the band you play with why should the audience have to accept some identikit sound?

IMHO the job of a PA is to be as transparent as possible, and that's why a good PA is so expensive.

Even in my limited experience of being recorded, and DI'd, both times the engineers got me in the control room and sought my advice on the sound I wanted and involved me in that aspect of the mix.

 

[stingrayPete1977]

5 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It worries me, this.

No-one, absolutely no-one, fails to recognise that  the sound of the amp is as essential to guitarist's sound as the guitar itself.

Yet bass players are supposed to abdicate their sound to 'what the soundman thinks is best'?

The relative cost and quality of the kit is irrelevant; it's the sound you get that matters and if you have spent a great deal of effort to get a sound that suits your style, the music you play and the band you play with why should the audience have to accept some identikit sound?

IMHO the job of a PA is to be as transparent as possible, and that's why a good PA is so expensive.

Even in my limited experience of being recorded, and DI'd, both times the engineers got me in the control room and sought my advice on the sound I wanted and involved me in that aspect of the mix.

 

But these sounds are available without an actual amp for both guitar players and bass players, if it's not being used to power an on stage monitor why lug it around. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

I was back stage at a very high profile gig last night, there wasn't an amp in sight, I didn't hear anything lacking out front. 

[M@23]

A studio recording is being captured in ideal surroundings too. The live sound engineer has other complications and things to factor in, and considerably less time to balance it all and give everything its place, as well as working with the room and surroundings - where its probably far easier to F things up for everybody with bad bass sounds than guitar. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by M@23

[Stub Mandrel]

Yes, but there's a world of difference between being a pro band with your own PA and sound engineer who can give you your signature sound and having to accept whatever the house engineer feels is appropriate for you.

[Beer of the Bass]

I can sort of understand where Bonamassa is coming from.  I'm sure a majority of his audiences are guitarists themselves, and there's very much an element of vicariously living out their blooze rock fantasies through him.  So even if he could get sounds so close no-one could tell the difference using a couple of quality modern guitars, in-ears and a Kemper, the audience want an array of noteworthy vintage guitars through a load of unobtainable boutique or vintage amps, cranked up in a way they could never get away with at the local blues jam night.  It's part of the draw, I think. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by Beer of the Bass

[EBS_freak]

14 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

I can sort of understand where Bonamassa is coming from.  I'm sure a majority of his audiences are guitarists themselves, and there's very much an element of vicariously living out their blooze rock fantasies through him.  So even if he could get sounds so close no-one could tell the difference using a couple of quality modern guitars, in-ears and a Kemper, the audience want an array of noteworthy vintage guitars through a load of unobtainable boutique or vintage amps, cranked up in a way they could never get away with at the local blues jam night.  It's part of the draw, I think. 

Knopler, that guy with a pretty distinguished signature tone..  just moved on to Kempers. I don't think any of his fans have come to see his amp collection.

As long as Brian May sounded like Brian May and there were some unplugged Voxes on stage, I don't think anybody would bat an eyelid if he was running a silent rig courtesy of a Kemper or something.

[stingrayPete1977]

17 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

I can sort of understand where Bonamassa is coming from.  I'm sure a majority of his audiences are guitarists themselves, and there's very much an element of vicariously living out their blooze rock fantasies through him.  So even if he could get sounds so close no-one could tell the difference using a couple of quality modern guitars, in-ears and a Kemper, the audience want an array of noteworthy vintage guitars through a load of unobtainable boutique or vintage amps, cranked up in a way they could never get away with at the local blues jam night.  It's part of the draw, I think. 

I get ya, a kind of Dinosaur blues club! 

[EBS_freak]

24 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Yes, but there's a world of difference between being a pro band with your own PA and sound engineer who can give you your signature sound and having to accept whatever the house engineer feels is appropriate for you.

Signature bass sound. Jeez.

Anyway, not having your own sound engineer... isn't that even more reason to make your rig as sound engineer friendly as possible?

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I get ya, a kind of Dinosaur blues club! 

They'll be extinct soon anyway.

The blues scene is very odd... it's a place where bedroom guitarists go to watch others knock out pentatonic licks... and it's kinda accessible because they can play over their idols CDs with their own nonsense pentatonic licks.

[Beer of the Bass]

11 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Knopler, that guy with a pretty distinguished signature tone..  just moved on to Kempers. I don't think any of his fans have come to see his amp collection.

As long as Brian May sounded like Brian May and there were some unplugged Voxes on stage, I don't think anybody would bat an eyelid if he was running a silent rig courtesy of a Kemper or something.

I don't mean to knock Mr Bonamassa, he's a talented musician who's found his niche and worked hard at it, and he's very well in tune with his fan base.  But I'd say he's a very different phenomenon to Knopfler or Queen. With them, the songs are the primary reason people love them - with Bonamassa it's his guitar antics.  I can't name a single Bonamassa song without resorting to Google, and I say this as someone who has played bass in bands that covered at least a couple of them!

[stingrayPete1977]

Most of the players I've seen complain about getting this killer signature bass tone have had nothing more than a generic P Bass and Ashdown rig with some crappy patches on a cheap pedal board thing,  they insisted that the engineer takes at least post di if not a cab micd up only to have the worst bass sound out front all night that neither cut through the mix nor exhibited what the player was doing even when clearly playing some nice stuff, often too loud out front ruining the FOH mix because the amp was right next to the player and had to be loud for them to hear it. 

Of course then if any of their fans say "you played great but the sound was terrible" guess what, it's the crappy sound crew because "we've spent ages getting the mix right in the studio". 

 

I've even been that person in the past too. 

[EBS_freak]

40 minutes ago, Beer of the Bass said:

I don't mean to knock Mr Bonamassa, he's a talented musician who's found his niche and worked hard at it, and he's very well in tune with his fan base.  But I'd say he's a very different phenomenon to Knopfler or Queen. With them, the songs are the primary reason people love them - with Bonamassa it's his guitar antics.  I can't name a single Bonamassa song without resorting to Google, and I say this as someone who has played bass in bands that covered at least a couple of them!

Oh c'mon, you may at least be able to tell us the chord progressions! 😛

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Signature bass sound. Jeez.

Anyway, not having your own sound engineer... isn't that even more reason to make your rig as sound engineer friendly as possible?

'Signature' was a bit tongue in cheek, but there are plenty of well-known bass players out there whose sounds are every different and it's far from all down to playing style or choice of instrument.

I don't claim every backstreet bassist is unique, but equally valid to  ridicule the idea that every bass player sounds the same? Or to say it's valid for someone to put in the effort to get a sound they like. If you're an established band  fans have an expectation of what you are going to sound like and that isn't necessarily the clearest, most balanced, crispest sound. People don't want to hear a stoner metal band sounding like pop-punk.

I know I sound very different though my tiny Orange crush and my big Laney - and it's not just the size 'cos the Orange crush sounds more like an SVT than the Laney does. Plus the Orange makes all sorts of basses sound more or less the same and the Laney highlights the differences between them (as does an Ashdown wghich are very transparent). Still learning my way around the Trace but it's different to all the others.

Are you saying that all these differences I hear are invalid because no-one else will hear them so I should let someone else choose for me?

 

[mcnach]

7 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I still can't understand why bass players think their high end expensive bass amp has a better EQ than a much higher end much more expensive PA system. 

 

I don't think it's so much arguing which EQ is better, but the fact that someone may want a specific sound and give that to the sound guy, rather than having the sound guy choose the sound as well as doing the mixing. 

 

 

[mcnach]

5 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Certainly, if I was full time pro and the sound crew got me a perfect FOH and in ear mix with the knobs in a certain spot I'd happily let them glue them in place. 

 

If only...;)

[mcnach]

3 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

But these sounds are available without an actual amp for both guitar players and bass players, if it's not being used to power an on stage monitor why lug it around. 

 

True. But unless the sound guy knows what you want, it's a lot easier to give him something close to what you want and let him take care of the mix, than giving him and entirely blank canvas.

You can achieve that without an amp, of course, and I can't wait for the time when I can use IEM routinely and be done with loud bulky beasts onstage... but unfortunately I'm not there at this point.