Joe Bonamassa on in-ear monitors

[EBS_freak]

16 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

I don't think it's so much arguing which EQ is better, but the fact that someone may want a specific sound and give that to the sound guy, rather than having the sound guy choose the sound as well as doing the mixing. 

 

 

Fieldy clearly chooses his sound... and is pretty adamant what comes out of foh... much to the despair of... everybody.

[EBS_freak]

45 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

'Signature' was a bit tongue in cheek, but there are plenty of well-known bass players out there whose sounds are every different and it's far from all down to playing style or choice of instrument.

I don't claim every backstreet bassist is unique, but equally valid to  ridicule the idea that every bass player sounds the same? Or to say it's valid for someone to put in the effort to get a sound they like. If you're an established band  fans have an expectation of what you are going to sound like and that isn't necessarily the clearest, most balanced, crispest sound. People don't want to hear a stoner metal band sounding like pop-punk.

I know I sound very different though my tiny Orange crush and my big Laney - and it's not just the size 'cos the Orange crush sounds more like an SVT than the Laney does. Plus the Orange makes all sorts of basses sound more or less the same and the Laney highlights the differences between them (as does an Ashdown wghich are very transparent). Still learning my way around the Trace but it's different to all the others.

Are you saying that all these differences I hear are invalid because no-one else will hear them so I should let someone else choose for me?

 

I'm sorry... Ashdown... transparent?

[mcnach]

2 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Signature bass sound. Jeez.

Anyway, not having your own sound engineer... isn't that even more reason to make your rig as sound engineer friendly as possible?

 

I'm not sure what @Stub Mandrel really meant with signature sound, but I suspect he wasn't been a precious diva and meant rather basic differences in bass tones that different people use. I haven't got a huge amount of experience recording, but it is interesting to hear what the engineer/producer's take is on bass sound sometimes. I sometimes get a rumbly mess without any definition... and that's most definitely what my bands DO NOT go for. Once you explain, or show them, it's usually "I see!" and they get it right. If you're in a punk band playing a bright precision, you're going to want that 'clank' and not a dub kind of bass. That kind of distinction. 

Which brings me to your point there: absolutely right. Doing away with loud speakers on stage that interfere with the mix is definitely desirable, in my view. I think a lot of the 'arguments' come from people having vastly different experiences with regards to the kind of venues and bands they play in. The best onstage sounding gigs I've ever played were on large stages, supporting rather than being the main attraction  where I could have a reasonable bass rig behind me and/or good monitoring. It makes playing a joy, which I'm sure reflects on the performance. That is possible on large venues. The smaller the venue, the more the onstage sound can interfere with the FOH mix. Bass in particular. Some people seem to dismiss IEMs as something you would only use when you get 'big' and play large stages. I think it would actually be very beneficial for bands playing the typical bar gigs. 

Edited June 9, 2019 by mcnach

[EBS_freak]

16 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

I'm not sure what @Stub Mandrel really meant with signature sound, but I suspect he wasn't been a precious diva and meant rather basic differences in bass tones that different people use. I haven't got a huge amount of experience recording, but it is interesting to hear what the engineer/producer's take is on bass sound sometimes. I sometimes get a rumbly mess without any definition... and that's most definitely what my bands DO NOT go for. Once you explain, or show them, it's usually "I see!" and they get it right. If you're in a punk band playing a bright precision, you're going to want that 'clank' and not a dub kind of bass. That kind of distinction. 

Which brings me to your point there: absolutely right. Doing away with loud speakers on stage that interfere with the mix is definitely desirable, in my view. I think a lot of the 'arguments' come from people having vastly different experiences with regards to the kind of venues and bands they play in. The best onstage sounding gigs I've ever played were on large stages, supporting rather than being the main attraction  where I could have a reasonable bass rig behind me and/or good monitoring. It makes playing a joy, which I'm sure reflects on the performance. That is possible on large venues. The smaller the venue, the more the onstage sound can interfere with the FOH mix. Bass in particular. Some people seem to dismiss IEMs as something you would only use when you get 'big' and play large stages. I think it would actually be very beneficial for bands playing the typical bar gigs. 

You'd hope that the sound engineers in the venues you play at would know the requirements of mixing bass for different genres... but to be honest, if they can't do that, thats still the least of your worries! To be honest, with the tech available today, you should be able to rock up with a DI feed that outputs exactly that you want. If you need to carry around a small monitor do so... but if your sound is that important, get your pedal board in line, get a speaker emulator on it... and work on your tone being right out that DI. Then anything you need on stage, FRFR it. I still don't understand why people are so reluctant to make use of tech that will actually make them sound better... or correction, make the whole band sound better.

Exactly - the biggest benefit you can get from IEMs is in small, problematic venues. Less bleed into mics, you can lose the monitors - which gives you a load more headroom before feedback. Experience is defo a large factor here - having been on both sides of the equation, the benefits of low stage volume is defo rewarded at FOH. I can't understand why any band would want to compromise on their FOH sound just because they must have their on stage racket (and still complain they can't hear properly). At the end of the day, these are the folk that have all got tinnitus coming to them... The best thing I ever did was buy a set of IEMs that cost more than my rig. And you know what, they sound better too. And I don't have ringing ears after the event. And I can hear everything else on stage... and I got talk back so there's no shouting trying to get heard.

[Lozz196]

55 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

I don't think it's so much arguing which EQ is better, but the fact that someone may want a specific sound and give that to the sound guy, rather than having the sound guy choose the sound as well as doing the mixing. 

 

 

Agree, I want the FOH to be sending the sound of the whole band to the audience,  the sound we have worked on in order to create our sound. If any one part is changed it’s doing the band, but mostly the audience that has paid to see them a dis-service. 

[EBS_freak]

So what about all these bands that are using shared backline on all these originals gigs? Wouldn't it make sense to get your DI right to eliminate that variable? 

[Lozz196]

8 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

So what about all these bands that are using shared backline on all these originals gigs? Wouldn't it make sense to get your DI right to eliminate that variable? 

Most of us on the Punk/Oi scene use a Sansamp or the like in order to try and maintain our sounds. I think the main area for the need for this are bands whose bassists use gain/drive, especially 3 pieces where the bass is in some ways doing a rhythm guitar job.

Luckily these preamp/DI pedals are pretty good and provided there’s not too much low end they seem to be really easy to work with - many sound men seem to be really happy that I’m using one and often mention that it makes their job easier.

[stingrayPete1977]

10 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

I'm sorry... Ashdown... transparent?

I wasn't going to say anything! 

[stingrayPete1977]

Playing live in a comprimise in the sound department, if not using the "signature bass" sound makes the whole gig sound better in certain venues with certain house PA systems and certain house engineers then for me that's the way to go. 

[EBS_freak]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

Most of us on the Punk/Oi scene use a Sansamp or the like in order to try and maintain our sounds. I think the main area for the need for this are bands whose bassists use gain/drive, especially 3 pieces where the bass is in some ways doing a rhythm guitar job.

Luckily these preamp/DI pedals are pretty good and provided there’s not too much low end they seem to be really easy to work with - many sound men seem to be really happy that I’m using one and often mention that it makes their job easier.

Indeed - with things like the Helix and Kemper our there, I really don’t know why people are so eager to use something that they have a lot less control over.

Tech has moved on - keyboard players don’t have to lug around Hammonds anymore... in fact, they can take around a whole lot more modelled instruments that are now indistinguishable from the real thing (and a lot more reliable too). Lugging heavyweight amps was cool (not that that there was much other option) in the 60s and 70s, not now.

[EBS_freak]

9 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Playing live in a comprimise in the sound department, if not using the "signature bass" sound makes the whole gig sound better in certain venues with certain house PA systems and certain house engineers then for me that's the way to go. 

Are there really any signature bass sounds that could make or break a performance... when I say that, sounds that can only be obtained from micing up and amp and speaker?

[borntohang]

39 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Are there really any signature bass sounds that could make or break a performance... when I say that, sounds that can only be obtained from micing up and amp and speaker?

I suspect Lemmy might have struggled with just a clean DI from the bass! 

[Stub Mandrel]

11 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

I'm sorry... Ashdown... transparent?

Well I wasn't pushing it. I put the tone controls at 12 and switched off the compression and sub-octave, then slightly wound up the bass to get the tone I wanted.

In fairness if I had got the gain past nine o'clock it might have sounded completely different.

I've been out of 'the game' for a long time but I prefer to speak from my experience of trying these things rather than what I've read about different amps etc.

The one gig I've done since 'coming back' I was faced with a Marshall MB150 bass combo I'd never seen before, it had 'modern' and 'classic' channels so I went straight for the classic channel - and in the short time I had to try it it sounded absolutely awful. I switched to the modern channel and it was easy to get a sound I liked.

 

[stingrayPete1977]

24 minutes ago, borntohang said:

I suspect Lemmy might have struggled with just a clean DI from the bass! 

I think there's a lot of confusion here, no one is saying you either go clean or use an amp, what we are saying is what is this signature bass tone that the amp and cabs are creating that can't be created any other way other than a huge amp at full volume.  The clean DI can go to whatever processing you want either at the desk end or near the actual player. 

I'd wager there's a bass player out there getting a killer Lemmy sound without an amp. 

Edited June 10, 2019 by stingrayPete1977

[stingrayPete1977]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Are there really any signature bass sounds that could make or break a performance... when I say that, sounds that can only be obtained from micing up and amp and speaker?

It's been said many times that the sign of a great song is one that can be played in different styles and still sound great. 

[EBS_freak]

10 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I think there's a lot of confusion here, no one is saying you either go clean or use an amp, what we are saying is what is this signature bass tone that the amp and cabs are creating that can't be created any other way other than a huge amp at full volume.  The clean DI can go to whatever processing you want either at the desk end or near the actual player. 

I'd wager there's a bass player out there getting a killer Lemmy sound without an amp. 

Absolutely. I'd say Lemmy's tone is one of the easiest to cop. Of course, Lemmy was probably playing the gigs where he could have stage ornaments and run his massive rigs in an isolation box off stage anyway. But then Lemmy was deaf... so his amps were probably his IEMs anyway.

[EBS_freak]

9 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

It's been said many times that the sign of a great song is one that can be played in different styles and still sound great. 

We're seconds away from mentioning Paul Anka Rock Swings 😛

[Dudgeman]

4 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Are there really any signature bass sounds that could make or break a performance... when I say that, sounds that can only be obtained from micing up and amp and speaker?

pre Kemper I would say,  absolutely, Chris' Muse tones needed his 2x15s which is why they were always under the stage... That's why I used them and they definitely influence his sound. I don't do the Muse stuff anymore but if I did I would like to know who would pay the £2k plus for the Kempers you would have me buy..I love tech but don't have the money to invest in that sort or gear anymore so I use amps live. It's the way it is.. and it's the way I prefer to play..I do have iems but have never received a quality mix from a desk to them yet that would persuade me to go all in. I am back gigging in July so may well give them another go to see if my local venues have got on top of iems as I like my hearing as much as I like to play live.

 

[EBS_freak]

7 minutes ago, Dudgeman said:

pre Kemper I would say,  absolutely, Chris' Muse tones needed his 2x15s which is why they were always under the stage... That's why I used them and they definitely influence his sound. I don't do the Muse stuff anymore but if I did I would like to know who would pay the £2k plus for the Kempers you would have me buy..I love tech but don't have the money to invest in that sort or gear anymore so I use amps live. It's the way it is.. and it's the way I prefer to play..I do have iems but have never received a quality mix from a desk to them yet that would persuade me to go all in. I am back gigging in July so may well give them another go to see if my local venues have got on top of iems as I like my hearing as much as I like to play live.

 

Modelling isn't limited to the Kemper. A Helix Stomp can be had for the price (or even less - I think they are circa £430 at the moment) of a decent 1x15 cab. Plus it'll give you a load of fx that will help go towards nailing the Muse fx. I would even wager that the Zoom B3n would give you a decent platform to build off. A lot of people however, will be put off because the Zoom or Line 6 names don't fit with their idea of boutique branding.

I think I am not alone when I say there are IEMs and IEMs. A set of 215s wont give you the powerful bass that you crave... and as such, leads to a lot of people saying that theyve tried IEMs and they are cack. That's like saying I've tried PAs and the 50w Tandy special proves that PAs are crap. Granted though - IEMs again, depends upon a quality mix... but if you give the sound engineer less to worry about, the greater chances of getting good mixes that are representative of what you want to hear all round. If you're that concerned, with a DI setup, you could even carry your own cheap (XR18) monitor mixer and two way split (to FoH) to do your own mix from... then you can only blame yourself!

[stingrayPete1977]

If I was on the originals circuit now that's exactly what I'd do, everyone on in ears preferably and ampless into a Behringer digital mixer that we'd get mixed to perfection in our own time then give the venue L and R, essentially like giving them an mp3 to play through their system at a volume to suit. 

[EBS_freak]

7 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

If I was on the originals circuit now that's exactly what I'd do, everyone on in ears preferably and ampless into a Behringer digital mixer that we'd get mixed to perfection in our own time then give the venue L and R, essentially like giving them an mp3 to play through their system at a volume to suit. 

I wouldn't go as far as that - they can mix what they want FOH - but perhaps what you are saying would put some people's minds at rest!

[Dudgeman]

2 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

If I was on the originals circuit now that's exactly what I'd do, everyone on in ears preferably and ampless into a Behringer digital mixer that we'd get mixed to perfection in our own time then give the venue L and R, essentially like giving them an mp3 to play through their system at a volume to suit. 

That is absolutely not the way to go, it simply doesnt work.like that...That is exactly what Wheatus did when they played with us in Wales.. they flatly refused to let the sound guys do FOH mixing and it was positively the worst sound I have ever heard from a band... The venue had a way of massively amplifying the low end ...Sound guys were helpless to do anything apart from volume. We let them do our sound...definitely one of the pro set ups I had the pleasure to deal with and really good engineers.  

[stingrayPete1977]

The feed still goes to the desk, I wouldn't bypass and go direct to the power amps. It's all hypothetical anyway, my originals days are done with. 

I'd happily do both tbf, my mixer running our in ears on stage instead of wedges or amps/cabs and di out to the sound crew to do as they please, which given no amps to bleed into mics and no vocal monitors to cause feedback into the mics I think they'd be very happy! 

Edited June 10, 2019 by stingrayPete1977

[BigRedX]

20 hours ago, Dudgeman said:

pre Kemper I would say,  absolutely, Chris' Muse tones needed his 2x15s which is why they were always under the stage... That's why I used them and they definitely influence his sound. I don't do the Muse stuff anymore but if I did I would like to know who would pay the £2k plus for the Kempers you would have me buy..I love tech but don't have the money to invest in that sort or gear anymore so I use amps live. It's the way it is.. and it's the way I prefer to play..I do have iems but have never received a quality mix from a desk to them yet that would persuade me to go all in. I am back gigging in July so may well give them another go to see if my local venues have got on top of iems as I like my hearing as much as I like to play live.

Lat year I switched to a Line6 Helix and an RCF745 FRFR speaker - total cost just over £2k new. The bass rig that they replaced cost me about the same at (mostly) second hand prices ten years previously.

Edited June 11, 2019 by BigRedX

[BigRedX]

On 09/06/2019 at 10:47, Dudgeman said:

but I totally agree ..Why do sound Engineers think that DIs are perfectly acceptable for bass sounds? Pretty sure you would never DI a guitar amp...

When I was last playing guitar live I was DI'ing my guitar amp. But then I was running a Hughes & Kuttner Tube 50 with a built-in Red Box DI system. We did an A/B test in the studio and  the DI feed was virtually indistinguishable from that of an SM57 off-axis to the 12" speaker.