Mooer GE 300 - has Helix met its match?

[Al Krow]

Looking forward to this a lot! Prototype presented at NAMM Jan 2019 and finally going to be available from June 16th, according to the press release.

Edited May 28, 2019 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

This feature in particular has got my attention! No multi-fx I've come across yet on my travels has been able to come close to competing with decent filter and synth pedals. If the Mooer cracks this and is also half decent on bass and not just guitar (two BIG "if's") then this really could be the multifx to completely replace my pedal board.

 

[Woodinblack]

Certainly will help in your quest to have owned all the effects pedals

Mind you, as Mooers way of designing effects pedals appears to be stealing them from other people, unless someone else has cracked the problem you want solved, chances are they haven't.

[Al Krow]

39 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Mind you, as Mooers way of designing effects pedals appears to be stealing them from other people, unless someone else has cracked the problem you want solved, chances are they haven't.

Tbf they do seem to be moving on from that initial imitation-approach to now start coming up with some more original kit. This particular multifx will see them leap frogging Zoom and going head to head with Helix. It's certainly not going to be purely a cheap and cheerful price play. 

You may have noticed more than one bass maker pretty brazenly using Leo Fender's iconic design for their own brands, from time to time. And there have been plenty of cloned pedals too! At least Mooer have consistently tried to minitaruise some of effects they were cloning. 

[Woodinblack]

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Tbf they do seem to be moving on from that initial imitation-approach to now start coming up with some more original kit.

Moving on? In that they were actually prosecuted 5 months ago for theft

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

You may have noticed more than one bass maker pretty brazenly using Leo Fender's iconic design for their own brands, from time to time. And there have been plenty of cloned pedals too!

Yes, but these days actual companies cloning fender basses don't actually slap a fender badge on it (and if they do, then they deserve to be prosecuted). Mooer didn't clone the design, like many people did, such as copying a circuit design or making something that looked like a thing, they actually flat out pirated the software of another company and put it in their product. And it would concern me that someone that did something that amaturish (I mean, couldn't they have at least removed the other companies copyright to make it look like theirs) might not be able to come up with something that original themselves.

Maybe they copied the helix this time - I guess we will find out soon!

Problem i see with the screen shot you showed is that is the easy bit - any old fool can slap the oscillators, filters and envelopes together*, that is pretty trivial step, but it is the pitch following and triggering that is the bit that makes the problem tricky. Tricky on a guitar, incredibly tricky on a bass.

So overall - if they have come up with something that is as good as a helix, what have we gained? Competition? I mean, the helix is already there. Is it much cheaper? And also, if they have come up with something as good as a helix, haven't you recently replaced the helix on your pedalboard with something you acknowledge is not as good?

* literally. ie, I could do it, and you don't get older and foolisher..

[Al Krow]

Hey Woody, yup Mooer were held bang to rights. The case revolved around Mooer’s Mooergan and Tender Octaver pedals, which included exact copies of the software used in EHX’s C9 and Micro POG. After almost two years of fighting the Chinese courts have awarded Electro-Harmonix a nearly six-figure judgement i.e. $500k if we take the middle of that range.

But do any of us have anything made by Samsung? Samsung were ordered to pay Apple $539 MILLION after losing a US patent lawsuit. 

Then what about Apple and Qualcomm? Apple will pay Qualcomm an undisclosed sum as part of the settlement, which includes a six-year licensing agreement between the two.

Apple tried suing Microsoft about Windows imitating their GUI (but lost). Fender tried to copyright the design of its iconic guitars (and also lost). They both clearly thought they had a case.

Oh yes and the EU have just successfully sued Apple for tax avoidance (in collusion with the Irish government) and Apple have paid back $15.3 BILLION in back taxes. Ok time to avoid all Apple products, too, now then?

All household names. All products we love. But I’m not really seeing too many 'pure angels’ in the commercial world out there, are you?

I suspect that Mooer have learned their lesson – they know they will be very much on other folks’ radar. There was actually a lot of love for the Tender Octaver from bass players and considered by many to be a more attractive product than the EHX POG.

Meanwhile I am looking forward to seeing reviews of how this new feature laden GE 300 stacks up on bass and whether its synth engine is going to be half decent or not.

 

Edited May 31, 2019 by Al Krow

[Woodinblack]

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

But do any of us have anything made by Samsung? Samsung were ordered to pay Apple $539 MILLION after losing a US patent lawsuit. 

They were, and probably vice versa, but those are patents, and some of them very obvious patents. That is why the world doesn't use gifs any more and many other things. Patents are supposed to be about protecting innovation, although not what they are used for by large companies these days. But this is not the same thing as actual piracy.

Clearly when the android operating system came out the second time, it was a rip off of the iPhone and as such it was an infringment, but what it wasn't was actual theft of the code, it was just doing the same thing in a different way.

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Then what about Apple and Qualcomm? Apple will pay Qualcomm an undisclosed sum as part of the settlement, which includes a six-year licensing agreement between the two.

Apple and Qualcomm was about contract terms, nothing to do with copying anything, apple tried to use intels radio system and qualcomm thought they had an exclusive deal (maybe they did, maybe they didn't). Apple had to pay in the end as intel couldn't make them.

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Apple tried suing Microsoft about Windows imitating (but lost). Fender tried to copyright the design of its iconic guitars (but lost). They both clearly thought they had a case.

Oh yes and the EU have just successfully sued Apple for tax evasion (in collusion with the Irish government) and Apple have paid back $15.3 BILLION in back taxes. Ok time to avoid all Apple products, too, now then?

All household names. All products we love. But I’m not really seeing too many 'pure angels’ in the commercial world out there, are you?

I suspect you are clearly misunderstanding my point here, I am not talking about pure angels, I am talking about if a companies way of making an effects pedal is to just copy another company, it doesn't say anything about the quality of innovation. If they did it in such a way as to be stupid enough to even be able to be in breech of copyright in a Chinese court, then it really doesn't show much about their engineering.

So I wouldn't be looking for any sudden advance of technology from them, unless someone has already done it.

OK, maybe they will be like a behringer, start out copying and end up doing something new, but it doesn't seem to be their business model and when I look at the GE300, it doesn't look like unfamiliar territory.

 

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Meanwhile I am looking forward to seeing reviews of how this new feature laden GE 300 stacks up on bass and whether its synth engine is going to half decent or not.

Why bother wasting time with the reviews, you know you are going to buy it anyway

 

[Al Krow]

5 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Why bother wasting time with the reviews, you know you are going to buy it anyway

😂🤣

[Al Krow]

2 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

I suspect you are clearly misunderstanding my point here, I am not talking about pure angels, I am talking about if a companies way of making an effects pedal is to just copy another company, it doesn't say anything about the quality of innovation. If they did it in such a way as to be stupid enough to even be able to be in breech of copyright in a Chinese court, then it really doesn't show much about their engineering.

Btw I do very much get the point your'e making and it's a valid one - we discussed it at some length on this previous thread at the end of last year.

In terms of innovation I was amused by the slightly ironic comment from Music Radar reporting the EHX vs Mooer case, when at the end of their article when they pointed out that:

"Both firms will be bringing new products to NAMM: Mooer looks set to disrupt the multi-effects market with the GE300, while EHX has stayed quiet on its new launches - aside from its own brand strings."  

 

[Al Krow]

Polyphonic synth!! Does Helix even come close to doing this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtsTFgQh6UE

Love to hear this demo'd on bass. 

[Woodinblack]

I would be very surprised if you couldn't do that with a helix, or am I missing the unique stage? It is just someone shredding with a synth patch.

[Kev]

On 26/05/2019 at 23:05, Al Krow said:

This feature in particular has got my attention! No multi-fx I've come across yet on my travels has been able to come close to competing with decent filter and synth pedals. If the Mooer cracks this and is also half decent on bass and not just guitar (two BIG "if's") then this really could be the multifx to completely replace my pedal board.

 

Some of the biggest IFs ever 😂

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

I would be very surprised if you couldn't do that with a helix, or am I missing the unique stage? It is just someone shredding with a synth patch.

I don't think the Helix does poly synth, but I'm happy to be corrected if I have that wrong.

[fretmeister]

Helix synths are monophonic.

 

At the moment anyway

[BassThing]

On 27/05/2019 at 11:12, Woodinblack said:

They were, and probably vice versa, but those are patents, and some of them very obvious patents. That is why the world doesn't use gifs any more and many other things. Patents are supposed to be about protecting innovation, although not what they are used for by large companies these days. But this is not the same thing as actual piracy.

Yup, patenting a rectangle, was hardly innovation by Apple.

[Woodinblack]

28 minutes ago, BassThing said:

Yup, patenting a rectangle, was hardly innovation by Apple.

That is a design patent, a bit different from a technological patent, and although the 'apple patented a rectangle'  is how that was always presented, but the patent used in that part was a very obvious rip off by google on the whole design of the iPhone, compared to where andriod was before the release.  If I had been them I would have done it too, when you know google are just going to copy anything you try to make.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

That is a design patent, a bit different from a technological patent, and although the 'apple patented a rectangle'  is how that was always presented, but the patent used in that part was a very obvious rip off by google on the whole design of the iPhone, compared to where andriod was before the release.  If I had been them I would have done it too, when you know google are just going to copy anything you try to make.

Design patents seem to be such a lottery, though. Fender don't seem to have been able to patent their iconic designs e.g. Stratocaster, Telecaster, P Bass and J Bass and stopping a myriad of clones pinching their designs. You would have thought that Sadowsky, Sandberg etc all would have at least had to pay a royalty on each bass in the same way Warwick had to with Spector (in the end) I believe. 

Seems a lot easier to get compensation for folk filching a melody or bass riff than it does an iconic guitar or bass design!

[LukeFRC]

15 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Design patents seem to be such a lottery, though. Fender don't seem to have been able to patent their iconic designs e.g. Stratocaster, Telecaster, P Bass and J Bass and stopping a myriad of clones pinching their designs. You would have thought that Sadowsky, Sandberg etc all would have at least had to pay a royalty on each bass in the same way Warwick had to with Spector (in the end) I believe. 

Seems a lot easier to get compensation for folk filching a melody or bass riff than it does an iconic guitar or bass design!

There's reasons for that though. 
To patent a shape of a body etc in the USA (and I think we're actually talking about trademarking) you have to demonstrate that it is unique to your design and that you have made efforts to protect the IP for whatever you want to patent. 
So by the time Fender (CBS or whoever owned them then) tried to trademark the shape of their guitars it was determined that they hadn't tried to protect them previously and that they had become 'generic'. The headstock they could trademark... 
Conversely Rickenbacker were able to show they had made steps to protect the shape of the body and headstock of their instruments.- so they could protect them. One of the consequence is that to keep them protected they have to show that they are continuously making steps to stop people using their trademarks fraudulently.... hence why they have to threaten small bass forums in the UK...... 

[Al Krow]

It's out!

£665 at Andertons and Gear4Music

But already just £581 at Juno...

 

[Woodinblack]

Odd that it is mono in, but I guess that is a budget choice

[LukeFRC]

11 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

It's out!

£665 at Andertons and Gear4Music

But already just £581 at Juno...

 

Is it helix size or smaller? 

[Al Krow]

7 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

Is it helix size or smaller? 

• Dimensions: 410mm x 201mm x 62mm
• Weight: 3KG

=> Bigger than Stomp; smaller than Helix LT

 

[LukeFRC]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

• Dimensions: 410mm x 201mm x 62mm
• Weight: 3KG

=> Bigger than Stomp; smaller than Helix LT

 

You should defiantly buy one and report back. I realise I am adding nothing to this relationship except encouraging you to spend your money but still...!

[Al Krow]

Thanks Luke, I appreciate your words of wisdom and encouragement.

 

 

😂