Going ampless...DI?

[geoham]

10 hours ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Time to go wired in ears, ditch all the heavy boxes! 

Our entire stage setup for a four piece function/pub band is two RCF 735 speakers, mixer and two di boxes, guitar pedal board,  drumkit, three mics and stands, kick drum mic, bag of leads and four sets of in ears. 

I've never been able to hear myself so well and the FOH mix is the best it's ever been, I've actually had random people in the pub say they've seen us lots of times and the sound is the best it's ever been by far and better than all the other band's, ha. 

There’s a couple of us wanting to try this out. Cost is a major blocker - we’re mostly playing pubs for buttons. I don’t mind budget gear, but it seems that you need to shell out for decent in-ears.

The other thing is the guitarist - I reckon we’d need him mic’d up to make this work.

 

George

[paul_c2]

7 minutes ago, geoham said:

We already have two good quality monitors that were being used for vocals only. I just put the bass and keys through these - sounded great! The guitarist did grumble a bit that he didn’t want keys and bass in the monitor, just vocals - so may be an idea to use both aux channels next time rather than run both monitors for a single aux.

George

Apologies for veering slightly off-topic, but it leads to a further (general) enquiry: For a band with n members, how many monitor mixes are needed/wanted? For example, I'd imagine a vocalist might want something of their own; does everyone else need their own or just want their own (and a 2nd general mix is perfectly adequate)? And does this still apply if certain players go ampless? I am just getting into live sound and maybe buying a mixer soon. The temptation is to buy something with a bit of future expansion in mind. And of course these days, one could "go digital" and benefit from more (pre-fader) aux outs, perhaps. (But I like the simplicity of quickly going up to it and turning something down).

[geoham]

37 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

Apologies for veering slightly off-topic, but it leads to a further (general) enquiry: For a band with n members, how many monitor mixes are needed/wanted? For example, I'd imagine a vocalist might want something of their own; does everyone else need their own or just want their own (and a 2nd general mix is perfectly adequate)? And does this still apply if certain players go ampless? I am just getting into live sound and maybe buying a mixer soon. The temptation is to buy something with a bit of future expansion in mind. And of course these days, one could "go digital" and benefit from more (pre-fader) aux outs, perhaps. (But I like the simplicity of quickly going up to it and turning something down).

In my experience, vocalists want to hear themselves above all else - but also a bit of everything else too. If that’s a compromise everyone else could live with, then one monitor mix could do the job. If not, everyone could theoretically want their own mix - which is probably beyond many mixers! 

I played a festival once, (with my old originals band), and we each had our own monitor mix and there was a dedicated monitor engineer. The sound was great, but I reckon our monitor mixes were pretty much the same.

Regarding digital vs analogue mixers  - I’ve seen bands use iPad driven mixers. I’ve never tried them, but the idea terrifies me! I’m constantly tweaking both the FOH and monitor mixes - particularly during the first few songs. Can’t imagine quickly doing that on a touchscreen with my left hand while I play an open string with the right! I’m generally not adverse to tech at all (my day job is in IT),  but sometimes simplicity is what is needed.

George

Edited June 1, 2019 by geoham

[stingrayPete1977]

59 minutes ago, geoham said:

There’s a couple of us wanting to try this out. Cost is a major blocker - we’re mostly playing pubs for buttons. I don’t mind budget gear, but it seems that you need to shell out for decent in-ears.

The other thing is the guitarist - I reckon we’d need him mic’d up to make this work.

 

George

The mixer is the trickiest part cost wise, KZ ZS10 Ear plugs can be had for less than £35! 

[stingrayPete1977]

21 minutes ago, geoham said:

In my experience, vocalists want to hear themselves above all else - but also a bit of everything else too. If that’s a compromise everyone else could live with, then one monitor mix could do the job. If not, everyone could theoretically want their own mix - which is probably beyond many mixers! 

I played a festival once, (with my old originals band), and we each had our own monitor mix and there was a dedicated monitor engineer. The sound was great, but I reckon our monitor mixes were pretty much the same.

Regarding digital vs analogue mixers  - I’ve seen bands use iPad driven mixers. I’ve never tried them, but the idea terrifies me! I’m constantly tweaking both the FOH and monitor mixes - particularly during the first few songs. Can’t imagine quickly doing that on a touchscreen with my left hand while I play an open string with the right! I’m generally not adverse to tech at all (my day job is in IT),  but sometimes simplicity is what is needed.

George

We went digital before going in ears, and in ears before going ampless. Once you've got the in ear mix where everyone wants it then it's saved and is ready from gig to gig. Not having the physical monitors on stage removes almost all feedback so the FOH can be set and saved and is about right for most gigs you'll ever do, it's not that much different to a DJ setting up to play some CDs or mp3s from a laptop really! 

Even our mid range behringer has four aux out mixes plus the headphone jack which should cover most pub bands to give individual in ear mixes. 

[geoham]

24 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

The mixer is the trickiest part cost wise, KZ ZS10 Ear plugs can be had for less than £35! 

14 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

Even our mid range behringer has four aux out mixes plus the headphone jack which should cover most pub bands to give individual in ear mixes. 

What are you plugging the headsets in that allows four separate mixes? 4x separate wireless transmitters/ receivers or something more simple?

Cheers

George

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, geoham said:

What are you plugging the headsets in that allows four separate mixes? 4x separate wireless transmitters/ receivers or something more simple?

Cheers

George

XR16 - 4 auxes.

Into 4 Behringer P2s.

Into 4 ZS10s

[stingrayPete1977]

That's it, what he said ^

[stingrayPete1977]

The xr16 is less than £300 which is incredible for what it can do, the inbuilt processing and fx would fill a transit van in old school kit. 

[pete.young]

2 hours ago, geoham said:

 

The other thing is the guitarist - I reckon we’d need him mic’d up to make this work.

 

George

We ditched the valve amps and put our guitarist onto a TC Electronic G System, plus in-ears.

[pete.young]

1 hour ago, geoham said:

Regarding digital vs analogue mixers  - I’ve seen bands use iPad driven mixers. I’ve never tried them, but the idea terrifies me! I’m constantly tweaking both the FOH and monitor mixes - particularly during the first few songs. Can’t imagine quickly doing that on a touchscreen with my left hand while I play an open string with the right! I’m generally not adverse to tech at all (my day job is in IT),  but sometimes simplicity is what is needed.

You don't have to go digital to get the number of mixers: I have a Yamaha analog mixer with 3 pre-fade aux buses and a headphone output which can be used to provide enough mixes. Once the levels for mixes are set, you don't usually need to change them much from gig to gig.

[operative451]

Disconnect one of the guitarist's speakers so hes less loud and his amp head plays up, and put weights in the bottom of his cab. Then start complaining of a bad back so you can't help him with it... 

 

[geoham]

9 hours ago, pete.young said:

We ditched the valve amps and put our guitarist onto a TC Electronic G System, plus in-ears.

We’re working on it! He’s got a massive Boss pedal which apparently has good amp sims. He’s agreed to try it through the PA at a rehearsal instead of an amp.

[Elfrasho]

Why not just run your b3n direct ? Exactly what I do and sounds immense.

 

Apologies if this has already been covered.

[geoham]

53 minutes ago, Elfrasho said:

Why not just run your b3n direct ? Exactly what I do and sounds immense.

 

Apologies if this has already been covered.

It doesn’t have an XLR out, so I used the one from my amp.

 I don’t mind running it straight to the line-in on the desk if it works. Is that what you do?

[Elfrasho]

11 minutes ago, geoham said:

It doesn’t have an XLR out, so I used the one from my amp.

 I don’t mind running it straight to the line-in on the desk if it works. Is that what you do?

Yep, exactly what I do. It's only a short run to the desk and I've never once experienced issues.

[Cuzzie]

If you desk had unbalanced inputs you can go straight into it from a pedal 

[geoham]

Probably what I should have done in the first place... just downloaded the manual for the mixer. It can take unbalanced inputs from instrument level sources, as long as the run is as short as possible. I’m probably about 6 inches away from the mixer most of the time... shouldn’t be a problem.

I’ll keep the Helix on the back-burner for now, but I’m really interested in giving in-ears a go.

[medpb]

Guitarists John McLaughlin has famously not been using amps for years. 

[Elfrasho]

In the wedding band scene it's pretty much standard for it to Be in ears  now. I had a rock band where I was basically the sound man too and we ran in ears, without spending alot.. we just do happened to have a mixer which had enough aux sends. It's dead easy. 

 

Generally though I find guitar players disliking them the most, but once they've bought in, the on stage sound is almost zero and makes life so much easier.  

 

But aye, b3n straight into mixer with a short cable is absolutely the way to go for you I think.  

 

Remember you'll probably want to run a cab SIM aswell as a preamp, especially if it's going dirty. I tend to run the svt with the svt cab at about 90% mix. Go easy on the bass coming out the b3n too , I generally keep the svt preamp at 0 on bass and I also run a hpf at thevend if the chain. Allows the in ear tone to be crystal clear, and allows the PA to receive a crisp tone to add the heft to.

[ribbetingfrog]

The guitarists in my band both run Helixes into the PA.

Great bit of kit. I love them and recommend them thoroughly.

Cant help thinking it’s over kill for bass though.

ive tried their helixes with my bass and good sounds are there in droves but it’s a lot of money and with a ton of effects you’ll probably never use on bass. If you do use a variety of tones and effects for songs then you’re covered.

They take some fiddling with to get them set up perfectly but then gigging with them is a breeze.

 

There are plenty of Di preamps that will fit in your gig bag and cost much less and you won’t have to worry about unnecessary complexity.

the Two notes le Bass And darkglass offerings are top notch. I ran a darkglass for a good while.

I actually run my bass through a Hughes and kettner tubemeister 5 guitar amp di’d into the desk, it has a great built in attenuator so no need for a speaker.

unconventional but it sounds amazing.

 

 

i always have the Behringer bdi preamp in my car just in case, it’s pretty good.

dont like the tone as much as my little amp but it was £17, cant go wrong.

[EBS_freak]

5 hours ago, ribbetingfrog said:

The guitarists in my band both run Helixes into the PA.

Great bit of kit. I love them and recommend them thoroughly.

Cant help thinking it’s over kill for bass though.

ive tried their helixes with my bass and good sounds are there in droves but it’s a lot of money and with a ton of effects you’ll probably never use on bass. If you do use a variety of tones and effects for songs then you’re covered.

They take some fiddling with to get them set up perfectly but then gigging with them is a breeze.

 

There are plenty of Di preamps that will fit in your gig bag and cost much less and you won’t have to worry about unnecessary complexity.

the Two notes le Bass And darkglass offerings are top notch. I ran a darkglass for a good while.

I actually run my bass through a Hughes and kettner tubemeister 5 guitar amp di’d into the desk, it has a great built in attenuator so no need for a speaker.

unconventional but it sounds amazing.

 

 

i always have the Behringer bdi preamp in my car just in case, it’s pretty good.

dont like the tone as much as my little amp but it was £17, cant go wrong.

Helix Stomp is comparable price to the more boutique analogue preamp pedals if you don’t want to go full fat Helix. It’s probably where I would go if I was in the market. (I really want one to mess with though!)

[geoham]

My own logic for looking at the Helix, is mostly a solution to several limitations with the Zoom B3n. 

- The fact that in stomp mode, the three foot switches are assigned to adjacent blocks, often requiring tap-dancing to get anything done live.

- I’d also that like to be able to split my signal, keeping a (mostly) clean low end.

- I believe I’d be able to use an effects return as a 2nd input, and balance the levels of both basses, making switching between then live easier. (Meaning my fretless could get out more!)

- If my amp falls back in to favour, I could route a speaker-sim to FOH, but not route this to the amp.

On the other hand, I probably wouldn’t use a great deal of the effects - amp/speaker sims, various levels of distortion and boring always on things like a noise gate and high-pass filter used regularly, with chorus, octave and phaser used sparingly.

As impressive as the HX stomp looks, I think I’d still end up frustrated. The LT isn’t that much more really expensive really, and the full blown Helix doesn’t seem to offer anything more that I’d need.

I think I’ve convinced myself by writing this.... I wonder if the wife will agree! 

George

[mrtcat]

Been gigging with a helix and IEM's for 2 years now. I love it for bass and, although I initially thought it was overkill, it has more than paid for itself. If i change basses mid set then I just hit the patch for that bass. I can change rig completely with the touch of a footswitch. The routing options are the best bit for me with the ability to split signals and run them in parallel applying effects only where needed. I use far more mild overdrive now by splitting at 800hz and only adding grit to the higher frequency. Makes for such a great fat but detailed sound out front. Myself and both guitarists are all on helix now (yes EBS_freak even Jamie the gear tart has come around now). Worth every penny imo. 

[EBS_freak]

42 minutes ago, mrtcat said:

Been gigging with a helix and IEM's for 2 years now. I love it for bass and, although I initially thought it was overkill, it has more than paid for itself. If i change basses mid set then I just hit the patch for that bass. I can change rig completely with the touch of a footswitch. The routing options are the best bit for me with the ability to split signals and run them in parallel applying effects only where needed. I use far more mild overdrive now by splitting at 800hz and only adding grit to the higher frequency. Makes for such a great fat but detailed sound out front. Myself and both guitarists are all on helix now (yes EBS_freak even Jamie the gear tart has come around now). Worth every penny imo. 

Jamie was only posting yesterday on facebook how he cant get any decent sounds out of it! :0 Is he a Kemper tart at heart? Mind you, I think he's one of those gear obsessives that will never find nirvana! I see he's sporting a St Vincent Musicman at the moment too! (I always wondered who would buy them when they were released - quirky looking things!)