Gah! Gig horrors!

[Jarhead]

At The Vic in Derby, don't know if any of you have played there, but you pay a fixed charge to book the place, which is essentially paying for the PA and the sound man, then you keep any money from tickets or on the door. They take their money from the bar. You promote yourself however you can, and the put the date on their month long gig plan and website. Its much easier then what you lot appear to experience, because there's no promoter getting in the way, and there's a good sized space to fit a crowd of about 150 inside, so suppose its you and another support band, £5 a ticket, 120 people or so, then you make £600, take away the fixed charge of £50 I think it is, say another £150 for the support band, then you walk away with £400. More places should be like that in my opinion.
Zach

[coasterbass]

[quote name='dangerboy' post='358638' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:05 AM']So London originals bands - start your own nights. One a month isn't that difficult to arrange, and you'll make a lot of new friends. Let's remove at least one layer of the people making money off our backs.[/quote]

Whilst we've gone out and done exactly as you suggest, the problem I've found is that venues are reluctant or unable to give out nights directly to bands because they have contracts with the promoters and so don't have any free nights.

In essence the venue have 'insured' themselves by selling each night to a promoter. Hey ho.

But, in better news, I'm really intrigued to see how tonight works out and will try and get along to the Dry bar later (assuming its open to punters?)

[OldGit]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='358966' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:06 PM']In essence the venue have 'insured' themselves by selling each night to a promoter. Hey ho.[/quote]


You can't blame them.
There are so many bands that are full of sh1t about how may people they will bring and who think that filling an empty pub with fabulous music for an evening is a viable alternative to a trib or covers band playing tired old hackneyd tunes to a pub heaving with ticket and beer buying punters ...

[The Funk]

[quote name='coasterbass' post='358966' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:06 PM']the problem I've found is that venues are reluctant or unable to give out nights directly to bands because they have contracts with the promoters and so don't have any free nights.

In essence the venue have 'insured' themselves by selling each night to a promoter. Hey ho.[/quote]

Who says you have to put them on at traditional music venues?

[OldGit]

[quote name='The Funk' post='358984' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:17 PM']Who says you have to put them on at traditional music venues?[/quote]


Rent a room, pay for an entertainments licence, bar licence, bar, bar staff, beer etc. to sell, security, door staff, stage, backline, PA and driver, lights, printing and distribution of publicity materials and tickets etc., do the publicity, radio, Facebook mailout, Email mail out, website, myspace, flyer distribution, promote the event and sell the tickets.

Then book the 5 compatible bands to make a fine show and decide who goes on when in the evening, make sure they act like grown ups, lend each other kit and minimise their Primadonna tendencies.
Then manage the stage and bands on the night, make sure the fights are sorted out, pay the bands and sweep up after yourself...


Yeah "money grabbing" venues and promoters don't really do much, especially compared to selling 20 tickets, turning up, plugging in and playing a few tunes

[The Funk]

[quote name='OldGit' post='358998' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:39 PM']Rent a room, pay for an entertainments licence, bar licence, bar, bar staff, beer etc. to sell,[/quote]

I'd only book places that already have these. But it doesn't have to be one of the "name" venues that offers f*** all value for money.


[quote name='OldGit' post='358998' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:39 PM']security, door staff, stage[/quote]

I'd tend to go for a place that has a stage already! Security - only ever played two gigs where there was security (ie. one doorman). And at most of the venues we've played the door staff have been incompetent. I'd rather place a trusted friend at the door. Almost anyone can do that job.


[quote name='OldGit' post='358998' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:39 PM']backline, PA and driver, lights[/quote]

We always provide our own backline. I'd normally book a place that had both a decent PA and lights. I'd pay for my own engineer. At least then I won't feel so bad for shouting at him at the end for ballsing up the sound so badly.


[quote name='OldGit' post='358998' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:39 PM']printing and distribution of publicity materials and tickets etc., do the publicity, radio, Facebook mailout, Email mail out, website, myspace, flyer distribution, promote the event and sell the tickets.[/quote]

Radio? Radio? Seriously? Publicity for most of these clowns = listing it on their myspace page/website (free to do and takes no more than 2 minutes) and/or getting Time Out to list it (again, free to do and takes no more than a 2 minute email).

Tickets - only played one gig where there were physical tickets. I've seen flyers/posters only for the 1 good promoter we still play with.


[quote name='OldGit' post='358998' date='Dec 19 2008, 05:39 PM']Then book the 5 compatible bands to make a fine show and decide who goes on when in the evening, make sure they act like grown ups, lend each other kit and minimise their Primadonna tendencies.
Then manage the stage and bands on the night, make sure the fights are sorted out, pay the bands and sweep up after yourself...[/quote]

I've only played for 1 promoter where the bands were compatible. And I have never, ever seen a promoter make bands act like grown-ups, force each other to share equipment or do anything to minimise Primadonna tendencies. I have seen promoters scrap the agreed running order, beg for equipment at the last minute that they were supposed to provide and weasle out of any kind of confrontation. I've also never seen a promoter cut short an overrunning soundcheck or support set.

And I've never seen a promoter clean up afterwards. That's the venue staff's job and the promoter's usually gone home long before then.

I'm not saying I disagree with you about a lot of bands thinking it's ok to be completely passive about self-promotion. I just think you have an idealised sense of what a lot of the clowns in London actually do - and therefore I think that bands should just put on gigs themselves.

Edited December 19, 2008 by The Funk

[Moody]

I seem to remember a thread on BC not so long back about trying to match up compatible bands in different areas, so for example if you were London based and had 100 regulars, you could 'trade' gigs with, say, a band from Scunthorpe who also had 100 or so followers thus getting you out there. Maybe this should be investigated further???

Oh, we have 21 fans on Facebook (all family) and do 8 covers anyone also this bad looking for a 'trade'????

Edited December 19, 2008 by Moody

[OldGit]

[quote name='The Funk' post='359069' date='Dec 19 2008, 07:13 PM']I'd only book places that already have these. But it doesn't have to be one of the "name" venues that offers f*** all value for money.

I'd tend to go for a place that has a stage already! Security - only ever played two gigs where there was security (ie. one doorman). And at most of the venues we've played the door staff have been incompetent. I'd rather place a trusted friend at the door. Almost anyone can do that job.

We always provide our own backline. I'd normally book a place that had both a decent PA and lights. I'd pay for my own engineer. At least then I won't feel so bad for shouting at him at the end for ballsing up the sound so badly.

Radio? Radio? Seriously? Publicity for most of these clowns = listing it on their myspace page/website (free to do and takes no more than 2 minutes) and/or getting Time Out to list it (again, free to do and takes no more than a 2 minute email).

Tickets - only played one gig where there were physical tickets. I've seen flyers/posters only for the 1 good promoter we still play with.

I've only played for 1 promoter where the bands were compatible. And I have never, ever seen a promoter make bands act like grown-ups, force each other to share equipment or do anything to minimise Primadonna tendencies. I have seen promoters scrap the agreed running order, beg for equipment at the last minute that they were supposed to provide and weasle out of any kind of confrontation. I've also never seen a promoter cut short an overrunning soundcheck or support set.

And I've never seen a promoter clean up afterwards. That's the venue staff's job and the promoter's usually gone home long before then.

I'm not saying I disagree with you about a lot of bands thinking it's ok to be completely passive about self-promotion. I just think you have an idealised sense of what a lot of the clowns in London actually do - and therefore I think that bands should just put on gigs themselves.[/quote]

London? Where's that?

Funk, you are clearly living in the real world and, as you have said, you have graduated from the toilet circuit circus because you are entertaining enough to sell a reasonable amount of tickets and you also put your own gigs on.

My post was only a reality check for people who whinge about being expected to contribute a tiny amount to the overall costs of creating an opportunity for them to play their gigs by bringing a very small number of punters to their gigs. Call it play to play if you want.

It was ever thus and it will always be because every average band playing uninspired music in an unentertaining way still thinks that they somehow deserve a platform, and more than that, the venue and promoter should subsidise their performance.

[LukeFRC]

My old band were booked once at somewhat late notice (like a month in advance) to headline King Tuts in glasgow.
Turned up and were told that apparently whoever had sold the most tickets headlined. She asked us how many we had sold and we just looked at her funny with a "umm we are from edinburgh, we played inverness last night and are tired, what are you talking about, you never gave us tickets to sell" I think as we had played inverness the night before she beleived us and we looked 'for real' so we got to play last.
It was the 2nd or 3rd best gig ive ever played. If i never find another band that does so well ill be happy.
promoters can be idiots though.
We tended to get good deals mind. "we will pay you £x if you will play, yes or no?"
The worst two were where the promoter had found us to support another similar (but way better) style band, we turn up to find we are first followed by two of glasgows dullist wesoundlikeourherosandhavenoimagination bands. Not great. Or the under18s night with glasvegas where they stick some school band who's original songs all tended to be exactly the same as other famous songs with different words. We were not happy.

[The Funk]

[quote name='OldGit' post='359251' date='Dec 19 2008, 10:52 PM']London? Where's that?

Funk, you are clearly living in the real world and, as you have said, you have graduated from the toilet circuit circus because you are entertaining enough to sell a reasonable amount of tickets and you also put your own gigs on.

My post was only a reality check for people who whinge about being expected to contribute a tiny amount to the overall costs of creating an opportunity for them to play their gigs by bringing a very small number of punters to their gigs. Call it play to play if you want.

It was ever thus and it will always be because every average band playing uninspired music in an unentertaining way still thinks that they somehow deserve a platform, and more than that, the venue and promoter should subsidise their performance.[/quote]

Hah, well, I only graduated to the real world recently.

Two years ago I posted a thread about my my first gig leading my own band. We'd overestimated our audience and afterwards the promoter very apologetically said he couldn't book us back until our audience was a bit bigger.

I remember one of your posts in response to that thread with the same message as you always give out - and you were bang on then and you're right now.

Looking at things in the most practical way possible, in the early days it's easier for a band to just worry about their material, their playing, their performance, their equipment, their transport and generating an audience than to worry about putting on a show themselves as well - and that's where the established promoters and venues come in handy. To get booked back, your audience needs to get to a reasonable size.

Once it's at a reasonable size and the material, playing, performance, equipment and transport are all sorted, then it can start to make sense to put on your own nights under your own control with your own financial risk. Depending on where you think you deserve to play that could cost between £500 and £1000. In a way that's still pay to play - except if your audience is as large as your ambition then you end up with a profit at the end of the night.

[OldGit]

[quote name='The Funk' post='359337' date='Dec 20 2008, 01:01 AM']I remember one of your posts in response to that thread with the same message as you always give out - and you were bang on then and you're right now.[/quote]

Yeah, Sorry, I'm a cracked record on this one "Pay to Play is evil, why can't they recognise my musical genius for it's own worth?" has been coming up for years and it probably always will.

So, if you are a new originals band reading this and moaning about playing toilets to no one and having to pay a promoter or venue for the chance to play at all, remember [b] all you have to do to get around that is become entertaining.[/b]
You clearly are not entertaining now 'cos no one wants to see you, either that or you just don't tell them when you are playing. My money is on the former.

That is it. It's as simple as that. No, really.

Once you are entertaiing you will not only feel good about getting your mates along to your gigs, they will feel cool about getting [i]their[/i] mates along to the next one and so on. That's how you build a following, then you take control of the gigs situation and leave behind the pay to play trap.

I'll not tell you what "being entertainig" is in your context, you have to work that out for yourself but your audience has to go away and say "hey, saw [insert band name] last night and they were great. They are playing down the [insert venue name] next week, Wanna come?"

If you can generate that response you are sorted.

[OldGit]

Sorry I hijacked your thread ..

So what happened in the end?

[woodster]

[quote name='Waldo' post='356249' date='Dec 16 2008, 06:09 PM']This just in: Promoter in shafting shocker![/quote]


In other news.... Bear goes to toilet in woods and Pope expresses an interest in the holy ghost!