Gah! Gig horrors!

[redzombie]

I'm not really a violent person but this guy sounds like he needs a swift kick in the junk.

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='356038' date='Dec 16 2008, 03:00 PM']We've got a gig (my last with this band) on Friday at the Dry Bar in Barbican. We booked the venue and paid to use it for a private function, giving the cash upfront. Our band and two mates' bands are playing. [i][b][u]We've sold out all of the pre-bought tickets.[/u][/b][/i] We're doing DJing and other stuff. All looking good.

Just found out that the promoter has added another FIVE acts to the night. Three are full bands. He's given them half hour slots - starting times of 19:30, 20:00, 20:30. Given all the prepaid private party bands will want a soundcheck, and given we're all adults with adult jobs so won't be able to get to the venue before 6pm, this isn't remotely possible.

Private function, mate.

Grrrrr. Etc.[/quote]

pre-bought tickets???? you've been duped into pay to play... and you were going to do DJ'ing as well... he must have thought all his Christmasses had come at once...

you see, if it had been a true private function, then you would have been printing and selling your own tickets... or just handing out tickets to invited guests...

Edited December 17, 2008 by Paul Cooke

[ARGH]

Sounds as if this guys an ass,and if more than a few have come across this,why are people still dealing with him?

[Cantdosleepy]

I won't be in future.

He's not moving on the other bands issue. We're sacking it off, getting another venue (we've got somewhere last-minute, don't worry) and asking for a refund but preparing for small claims court.

Is there somewhere on this site where we've got 'promoter feedback'? Would it be worth doing? It would be a good resource for somewhere like London, with the same old faces and lots of us playing there.

[The Funk]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='357109' date='Dec 17 2008, 04:15 PM']Is there somewhere on this site where we've got 'promoter feedback'? Would it be worth doing? It would be a good resource for somewhere like London, with the same old faces and lots of us playing there.[/quote]

Very much worth doing and I'd like to see it as a sticky.

[neepheid]

[quote name='Cantdosleepy' post='357109' date='Dec 17 2008, 04:15 PM']Is there somewhere on this site where we've got 'promoter feedback'? Would it be worth doing? It would be a good resource for somewhere like London, with the same old faces and lots of us playing there.[/quote]

It sounds like a libel case waiting to happen. People (in general) can't be relied upon to keep their cool and stick to facts when they've just been mucked about by some promoter or other.

[artisan]

this guy sounds like a total prick,hope you get your refund.
if it was me he'd be getting a good kicking anyway.

[The Funk]

[quote name='neepheid' post='357122' date='Dec 17 2008, 04:24 PM']It sounds like a libel case waiting to happen. People (in general) can't be relied upon to keep their cool and stick to facts when they've just been mucked about by some promoter or other.[/quote]

Even if people are rude and abusive where's the libel in "this guy is a twat - don't work with him under any circumstances"?

[Cantdosleepy]

Alright, how about having it in the Gigs section, something like this:


<title>Promoter Feedback</title>

[b]London[/b]

[url="http://<a%20href="http://www.myspace.com/clubmgriff"%20target="_blank">http://www.myspace.com/clubmgriff</a>"]Club McGriff[/url] - 1 Negative (reason - duped into pay-to-play)

Mysterious Dave the promoter - 3 negative, 8 positive (reason - killed a horse on the dancefloor)

[b]
Edinburgh[/b]

etc
etc





...and then people can reply to that thread adding promoters (good and bad). Someone can add those to the first post.

Sounds good?

[waynepunkdude]

Ah Club Mcgriff or as we call him Club Mcgrift.

Good luck buddy.

[ARGH]

A feedback threads a little too open for abuse...Trust me,Karma works in these situ's

[skankdelvar]

So let me get this straight - you booked it as a party and (barring a misunderstanding) he's wrapped a pay to play night round you. My condolences.

Some might call him a weasel-featured spawn of satan and I might agree.

But full marks for initiative.

[bassfunk]

[quote name='ARGH' post='357134' date='Dec 17 2008, 04:36 PM']A feedback threads a little too open for abuse...Trust me,Karma works in these situ's[/quote]

You're right my band Karma does work in these situ's [url="http://basschat.co.uk/style_images/basschat/folder_post_icons/icon6.gif"]http://basschat.co.uk/style_images/basscha...icons/icon6.gif[/url]
Vman in Manchester springs to mind

[JonnyM]

My band has played the Dry Bar - different promoter, but I think we had to pay to use the backline and no, we couldn't use our own

We were also offered a gig at The Water Rats, but we had to buy X number of tickets up front. Needless to say, we politely told the promoter what he could do with his tickets...

Seems that the bad old Pay-To-Play days are making a comeback

[OldGit]

[quote name='JonnyM' post='358438' date='Dec 18 2008, 11:59 PM']My band has played the Dry Bar - different promoter, but I think we had to pay to use the backline and no, we couldn't use our own

We were also offered a gig at The Water Rats, but we had to buy X number of tickets up front. Needless to say, we politely told the promoter what he could do with his tickets...

Seems that the bad old Pay-To-Play days are making a comeback [/quote]

Being forced to use someone elses back line seems extreme but in general Pay to Play is perfectly fair ..

All you have to do is be good enough, and on the promotion case enough, to draw a crowd ..
That's usually all the promoter wants you to do.. This guy sounds a tad different, but in general pre-sales etc is all about getting the lazy bands to do their bit to bring in enough people to make the evening financially viable for all.
Nowt wrong with that. No one owes you a gig...

Edited December 19, 2008 by OldGit

[Paul Cooke]

[quote name='OldGit' post='358453' date='Dec 19 2008, 12:23 AM']Being forced to use someone elses back line seems extreme but in general Pay to Play is perfectly fair ..

All you have to do is be good enough, and on the promotion case enough, to draw a crowd ..
That's usually all the promoter wants you to do.. This guy sounds a tad different, but in general pre-sales etc is all about getting the lazy bands to do their bit to bring in enough people to make the evening financially viable for all.
Nowt wrong with that. No one owes you a gig...[/quote]

yeah, no-one owes you a gig, but the whole job of the promoter is to promote the event... he's getting you to do most of his job for him and riding off it. He should be the one with the risk of unsold tickets, but he's passed that off onto the bands by making them buy tickets up front.

[Musky]

[quote name='OldGit' post='358453' date='Dec 19 2008, 12:23 AM']Being forced to use someone elses back line seems extreme but [b]in general Pay to Play is perfectly fair [/b]..

All you have to do is be good enough, and on the promotion case enough, to draw a crowd ..
That's usually all the promoter wants you to do.. This guy sounds a tad different, but in general pre-sales etc is all about getting the lazy bands to do their bit to bring in enough people to make the evening financially viable for all.
Nowt wrong with that. No one owes you a gig...[/quote]

Sorry, but that's just tosh.

'Promoters' of these events (and they don't really deserve the title promoter) pass all risk involved in putting on a gig over to the bands. Their costs are more than covered by the bands before a note is played, so they don't actually have to do a thing to promote the gig. So they don't (and no, updating a myspace page isn't promotion). I wouldn't expect you to have heard of Club Mgrif in Cardiff, but nobody except the bands that play there have heard of it in London either - he's been operating for long enough at plenty of venues so you might expect some kind of profile. But he doesn't have to lift a finger because even if the place is completely empty the bands will be earning him a tidy profit. P2P promoters don't even have to bother putting on a matched bill.

Of course a band will always do better if they can pull in friends/family/fans, but that is not the issue. The issue is that all risk is pushed onto the band giving the promoter no incentive whatsoever to put on a good night. When you say that these gigs are 'financially viable for all' the truth is that it's just financially viable for the promoter - the bands too often end up out of pocket (on top of usual band costs). If the promoter believes a band can't pull anyone down, what the hell is he doing putting them on in the first place? Plenty of other promoters manage to put on well matched gigs without charging them a bean - if the band doesn't pull any punters they don't get rebooked. A P2P promoter on the other hand will happily continue putting on these bands safe in the knowledge that he's lining his pockets regardless. So what we get are depressing gigs of bands that need have little in common with each other, hence no reason for punters to hang about to watch other bands.

20 years ago these types of promoters had a strangle hold on London venues - we don't want them back. It's bad for bands, it's bad for the live music scene.

Edited December 19, 2008 by Musky

[OldGit]

[quote name='Paul Cooke' post='358604' date='Dec 19 2008, 10:13 AM']yeah, no-one owes you a gig, but the whole job of the promoter is to promote the event... he's getting you to do most of his job for him and riding off it. He should be the one with the risk of unsold tickets, but he's passed that off onto the bands by making them buy tickets up front.[/quote]


Well we've been round this a few times but...

I'm assuming you are playing originals or obscure covers and not Mustang Sally .

If you think the promoter will do all the work then you are likely to be paying to play (in one form or other) for all of your musical career.

It's the [b]band's[/b] job to promote [b]themselves[/b]. The promoter may help you do it but his real job is to promote his venue, and help the 14 other bands playing there that week.

If you can't be arsed to sell 50 tickets, or aren't good enough to sell 50 tickets or you aren't marketing your band well enough to sell 50 tickets then why should he bother to give you a gig that will cost him money when the next band along will do the work and will bring 50 or 100 paying punters ?

It's just pure economics and competition.

If you want to play his nice prestigious venue that is well known for putting on decent nights ( I assume, or why are you playing there at all?) and use his backline, his PA and his lights, and his stage and his bar staff and his electricity, business rates, etc etc etc then someone has to pay and if the punters aren't coming in, then it's you paying for a rehearsal space ..

Remember for him the choice is not[i] your [/i]band or [i]no[/i] band, its [i]your[/i] band Vs a[i] band that packs the place[/i]..

If you think he is doing a crap job then play elsewhere or play covers in a pub or put on your own gigs.

Edited December 19, 2008 by OldGit

[OldGit]

[quote name='Musky' post='358613' date='Dec 19 2008, 10:30 AM']Sorry, but that's just tosh.

'Promoters' of these events (and they don't really deserve the title promoter) pass all risk involved in putting on a gig over to the bands. Their costs are more than covered by the bands before a note is played, so they don't actually have to do a thing to promote the gig. So they don't (and no, updating a myspace page isn't promotion). I wouldn't expect you to have heard of Club Mgrif in Cardiff, but nobody except the bands that play there have heard of it in London either - he's been operating for long enough at plenty of venues so you might expect some kind of profile. But he doesn't have to lift a finger because even if the place is completely empty the bands will be earning him a tidy profit. P2P promoters don't even have to bother putting on a matched bill.

Of course a band will always do better if they can pull in friends/family/fans, but that is not the issue. The issue is that all risk is pushed onto the band giving the promoter no incentive whatsoever to put on a good night. When you say that these gigs are 'financially viable for all' the truth is that it's just financially viable for the promoter - the bands to often end up out of pocket (on top of usual band costs). If the promoter believes a band can't pull anyone down, what the hell is he doing putting them on in the first place? Plenty of other promoters manage to put on well matched gigs without charging them a bean - if the band doesn't pull any punters they don't get rebooked. A P2P promoter on the other hand will happily continue putting on these bands safe in the knowledge that he's lining his pockets regardless. So what we get are depressing gigs of bands that need have little in common with each other, hence no reason for punters to hang about to watch other bands.

20 years ago these types of promoters had a strangle hold on London venues - we don't want them back. It's band for bands, it's bad for the live music scene. [/quote]


All you have to do to switch the power from the promotor to the band is pull 200 punters every time you play.
Then you call the shots and they ask you nicely when you'd like to come back and do it again.

[Musky]

[quote name='OldGit' post='358620' date='Dec 19 2008, 10:39 AM']All you have to do to switch the power from the promotor to the band is pull 200 punters every time you play.
Then you call the shots and they ask you nicely when you'd like to come back and do it again.[/quote]

Precisely. But again, that is not the issue.

If you can pull 200 punters it's unlikely you'd want to touch a P2P promoter - they do nothing to promote or put on a good night!

There are enough promoters that manage to put on coherent bills of unknown bands that can still run a viable business (Bugbear at the Dublin Castle springs to mind). They even pull in punters for their nights regardless of the bill because they have some quality control. P2P doesn't - they just need to fill their slots - 6 of them in the case of Club Mgriff!

There will always be bands that can't/can't be bothered to pull any punters, just like there will always be plumbers who can't do their job properly. But you wouldn't deliberately hire a crap plumber and then charge [i]him[/i] upfront in case he does a bad job!

[dangerboy]

I find the economics of the whole originals scene in London a bit weird, but I guess it's evolved into a stable state. And honestly - if you can pull 200 people you won't be doing these nights. But everyone has to start somewhere, and the originals market is SO crowded in London that it's ludicrous.

In most cases the PA and soundman are provided by the venue, who charge the promoter a fixed fee. The promoter then books bands, and charges what he/she thinks they can get away with on the door. Most promoters don't promote bands, and then don't pay them either - they make enough on the door to pay their costs plus a nice profit, then start to give bands a quid here or there if they bring more than 20 people (which in most cases is enough to pay all the promoter's costs outright regardless of whether anyone else brings any people at all).

Everyone gets paid except for the people who are providing the content. Which is screwed.

I don't understand why we need separate promoters anyway. All the best nights I go to are put on by bands or people closely associated with bands. I love playing and going to the Vapour Trail in Holloway, Club Hell in Kings Cross, Rip This Joint in Camden, Goonite, Tooting Bizarre, Spatchcock in Stoke Newington etc etc. All nights put on by bands or closely related people (as is my own Duel in the Deep in Shoreditch). The bands always make sense together, so more people turn up since they're getting better value. And the bands often get paid, because the promoters aren't in it to make a profit.

When I promote I'm usually not that bothered about how many people a band will bring - I just want to know if they're making interesting and important music, and whether they're going to be fun to work with and put on. If we make a profit, cool - and we give it all to the bands. If we make a loss then I'm a fool.

So London originals bands - start your own nights. One a month isn't that difficult to arrange, and you'll make a lot of new friends. Let's remove at least one layer of the people making money off our backs.

[yorick]

Above... Here, here

[bassfunk]

[quote name='Musky' post='358629' date='Dec 19 2008, 10:56 AM']Precisely. But again, that is not the issue.

If you can pull 200 punters it's unlikely you'd want to touch a P2P promoter - they do nothing to promote or put on a good night!

There are enough promoters that manage to put on coherent bills of unknown bands that can still run a viable business (Bugbear at the Dublin Castle springs to mind). They even pull in punters for their nights regardless of the bill because they have some quality control. P2P doesn't - they just need to fill their slots - 6 of them in the case of Club Mgriff!

There will always be bands that can't/can't be bothered to pull any punters, just like there will always be plumbers who can't do their job properly. But you wouldn't deliberately hire a crap plumber and then charge [i]him[/i] upfront in case he does a bad job![/quote]

I completely agree with the comment about quality control. There are several venues I've played in the Northwest that promote themselves and do enough work to be known as a place to see quality live music. And then there are others where the promoter just takes on any sh*te band whose moms, dads, aunties uncles neighbours dog comes to see them.

If all venues are pay to play it means bands wanting to expand out of their 'catchment area' can't do. Because they can't get 50 people to travel a hundred or whatever miles to watch them.

[OldGit]

So stop playing those venues or the P2P nights ..

As Dangerboy says, put your own nights on., cut out the profiteering, do nothing promotor.

Simple ...

[The Funk]

[quote name='OldGit' post='358620' date='Dec 19 2008, 10:39 AM']All you have to do to switch the power from the promotor to the band is pull 200 punters every time you play.
Then you call the shots and they ask you nicely when you'd like to come back and do it again.[/quote]

We get that now. But seriously, in London's top toilet circuit venues you don't need 200 punters (they wouldn't be able to cope with that anyway). You need 20 to get booked back and if you ever get close to 50 they'll keep hassling you for years - you'll get your way through several generations of bookers - and if you ever get over 100, you'll be their golden boys.


[quote name='OldGit' post='358856' date='Dec 19 2008, 02:48 PM']So stop playing those venues or the P2P nights ..

As Dangerboy says, put your own nights on., cut out the profiteering, do nothing promotor.

Simple ...[/quote]

Agreed. The maths is really simple.

At The Water Rats, for example, they'll charge £8 on the door (even though it says £6 on their website and you'll have agreed that with the booker - who doesn't appear on the night and whose colleagues in the venue have seemingly had no communication with him about anything).

You start to get £1 per audience member after your band has pulled in the first 15 or so for nothing. You get £2 per audience member after you've pulled in 55. So, if you get 45 people (which for them is very good), you'll earn £30. If there are 5 of you in the band, that's a whole £6 each! The venue will have taken £330.

If you'd put on that night yourself with 4 other bands, each sharing the cost of hiring the venue - and let's say that venue costs £500 to hire out for the night - then your band, charging £3 less on the door (so £5), would take £125 in profit, so each member of your 5-piece would take home £25.

The reason Sleepy's situation sucks is that he went for Option 2 and got shafted with Option 1.

I've done enough Option 1 gigs. Not doing that anymore, no matter how often they call.