IEM's - to Amp or not to Amp - thats my Question

[Swijn]

Hello Guys & Gals,

My band are looking to move into IEM territory. We travel with own PA and sound engineer - so the switch itself will be pretty painless and am very confident in getting a great mix too. 

My question is .. how do you bassists run your rigs with IEM's..? Do you just D.I straight from a pedal board (presumably with an amp sim) so are completely amp-less onstage? or do you run into your amp head first (no cabinet attached) for your 'tone' and then D.I to the board? or do you just play your full rig (Amp + Cab) but just at low volume..? 

My initial thought was to go into my SVT7PRO and then D.I out to the board .. but after some scouting about i see for most people that its usually an 'all' or 'nothing'  approach. Your thoughts greatly appreciated !

 

[jrixn1]

14 minutes ago, Swijn said:

 D.I straight from a pedal board (presumably with an amp sim) so are completely amp-less onstage

 

This. Pedal pre-amp to DI.

[EBS_freak]

Save your back. Get as small a rig as possible. Ampless means less mush going into open mics on stage and a better sound outfront (assuming your PA can take bass OK). DI straight into the PA. If you want some sort of drive/speaker emulation or something like that, the Helix Stomp is a good bet.

[Swijn]

29 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Save your back. Get as small a rig as possible. Ampless means less mush going into open mics on stage and a better sound outfront (assuming your PA can take bass OK). DI straight into the PA. If you want some sort of drive/speaker emulation or something like that, the Helix Stomp is a good bet.

Cheers ... and yes small rig does makes sense. Both my guitarists use the Helix .. sing nothing but praises for it - i might have to join the club too  

[Greg Edwards69]

Helix for me. Much easier.  

I guess you have to ask yourself, how much of your tone comes from the amp? And how much comes from the cab too, to a certain extent. Also, if the amp does play a part in your tone, but not the cab, can it be used without a cab plugged in?

FWIW, the next helix update will include an SVT-4 Pro model.  Could be a good replacement for your SVT-7

Edited June 17, 2019 by Greg Edwards69

[knicknack]

I find it really interesting that this conversation has often gone down the 'All or Nothing' route.

In an ideal situation it's always a good IEM mix and a nice amp. I'm a massive IEM fan and go ampless where appropriate, but I know I play better with the reaction of an amp and the feeling of (for want of a better word) some weight behind the notes. Stuff like the Woojer and platforms can do the same thing but unless you really want it to be quiet on stage you may as well bring an amp instead. I find even a quiet amp makes a big difference to the feel of the instrument. @Swijn it sounds like you're in the perfect situation to get stuck in with some help. If you're using your Amp DI there's not much pain in bringing a cab... some gigs you may find (as I did the other day) you forget to unmute the cab and manage not to notice!

Also, from the perspective of a working guitarist, I far prefer it when there is a bass amp on stage... I find it encourages a more musical approach.

Short version: Getting used to IEMS gives you a lot of choice in how you approach a gig, and you'll certainly never regret being able to hear better (both and off stage!). Be flexible and appropriate to the situation, experiment and give yourself what you need to play at your best!

Edited June 17, 2019 by knicknack

[EBS_freak]

I think that the ampless thing is mostly about simplifying setups and making the PA easier to deal with. The less mics the better. Let’s face it, most people can’t deal with their own rig let  alone a PA.

[M@23]

Helix Stomp. Been a revelation for me. 

[Muppet]

Try it with an amp and cab, your amp as a preamp, maybe a separate stomp box type preamp and then Direct and see what works for you!  There's no real rules as long as you get the sound you want. 

[Higgie]

I go ampless whenever I can. Generally I'll always have 2 DI's with me - A REDDI for sending my signal to the desk after my pedalboard, and a Sadowsky DI Pedal on my board. If I have control of my own mix and can have a stereo feed, then all is well and the Sadowsky becomes a very expensive tuner mute switch 😂 But if not, I send the REDDI to the desk, and I then take the DI out of the Sadowsky into one side of a Behringer P1 and have my mix into the other side so that I can still control the ratio of bass:monitor mix at my end. The only downside is for the other musicians who may miss the feeling of having the bass amp on stage, but with the Backbeat, it literally makes no difference to me having an amp on stage, hence going without whenever I can!

[Swijn]

Thanks all for the really useful info. The switch to IEM is mainly to get a more consistant and controlled monitor mix. The quieter stage will also be welcome. The stages we play are fairly large - so space not a real issue if i did set up my full rig - although i do like the idea of not having to cart it all around/unload/set-up/pack-down etc   

I guess i will just need to have a try out a few different routing options ..

[stingrayPete1977]

I did one in ears gig with my amp and cab, didn't need it and hasn't been used since. 

[P-T-P]

My gig journey:

Wedeges plus amp/cab for FOH
IEMs for monitoring and amp/cab for FOH
IEMs amp/cab for monitoring and DI out from amp to PA for FOH
IEMs for monitoring and modelling out from amp to PA for FOH
IEMs for monitoring and built-in modelling in the PA mixer for FOH

Sometimes miss the physical aspect of cab onstage but happy that set-up, soundcheck and strip down for entire band now takes just minutes and my ears are a lot happier.

[chris_b]

Some guys prefer to feel the bass behind them others don't need that.

Does your band rehearse with the full rig? That's the place where you should be running both options and then deciding which one is best for you.

[EBS_freak]

8 minutes ago, chris_b said:

Some guys prefer to feel the bass behind them others don't need that.

Does your band rehearse with the full rig? That's the place where you should be running both options and then deciding which one is best for you.

"Feeling the bass" is a bit of over exaggerated term in my experience. When you stand in front of your amp, you aren't really capturing that feeling of "big air". Try it with your amp - pump that volume up and see how hard you have to drive it to get even the remotest feeling of "trouser flap". You are more likely feeling the vibrations through the attached surfaces. In which case, get a haptic feedback device, be it something like a platform, woojer or backbeat.

Conversely - a rehearsal room is nowhere representative of gigging environments. Or maybe that's my experience.

Rehearsal rooms - smallish, highly reflective rooms where you don't play or even want to play at gig volumes...or certainly shouldn't be if you want to avoid a mic swarming with feedback. I'd be surprised it you run your gear at gig volumes in a rehearsal room to get a representative idea of whats going on. The big, big plus for IEMs is that within reason, it keeps your monitoring in a much tighter ballpark - with very little changes from gig to gig or even rehearsal room to gig. It effectively takes the room (the biggest variable) out of the equation.

Yes, it can be a bit of a change to get used to... but for the vast majority of people doing IEMs properly (and this is the key word - properly) - they'll never go back to the tinnitus and lumping of backline.

 

[EBS_freak]

Just realised I've never answered the OP question -

I send everything to the PA and do a separate monitor mix for myself (I actually run a second desk just for IEMs for extra processing independent of FOH -- but that is overkill for most people) where I can set the volume and stereo position for every instrument on the stage.

I also have another aux that feeds a haptic bass board that enables me to put in a blend of kick and my bass. (Some people like just bass, I like to feel the kick too).

- I find this the most intuitive way of doing things... but what @Higgie describes is also a popular alternative, especially if you haven't got immediate control of your monitor mix - this is "the more me" setup.. however, you will then be running in mono unless you put another submixer in the setup. The only downside of this, is that if you are blending the bass signal with what is coming back from a (digital) mixer, you can introduce phasing issues, as the processing through A/D and D/A conversion will add latency, shifting the signals out of phase. In reality, most people won't even notice this.

[Swijn]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Just realised I've never answered the OP question -

I send everything to the PA and do a separate monitor mix for myself (I actually run a second desk just for IEMs for extra processing independent of FOH -- but that is overkill for most people) where I can set the volume and stereo position for every instrument on the stage.

I also have another aux that feeds a haptic bass board that enables me to put in a blend of kick and my bass. (Some people like just bass, I like to feel the kick too).

- I find this the most intuitive way of doing things... but what @Higgie describes is also a popular alternative, especially if you haven't got immediate control of your monitor mix - this is "the more me" setup.. however, you will then be running in mono unless you put another submixer in the setup. The only downside of this, is that if you are blending the bass signal with what is coming back from a (digital) mixer, you can introduce phasing issues, as the processing through A/D and D/A conversion will add latency, shifting the signals out of phase. In reality, most people won't even notice this.

EBS, We also have separate desk ready for the IEM's which will be run in stereo - mixed individually by us muso's onstage. I am tempted to get the Helix anyway (both my guitarists use the and it is an awesome piece of kit - equally so for bass) and A/B it with/without my current amp. 

[EBS_freak]

40 minutes ago, Swijn said:

EBS, We also have separate desk ready for the IEM's which will be run in stereo - mixed individually by us muso's onstage. I am tempted to get the Helix anyway (both my guitarists use the and it is an awesome piece of kit - equally so for bass) and A/B it with/without my current amp. 

Ah cool - so are you doing a FOH/Monitor split? To be honest, unless you are doing anything particularly fancy with your tones, you should give a DI straight into the desk ago. If you have a separate desk, you can manipulate your bass EQ/comp etc for your ears til the cows come home... and then you have a clean DI feed for your FoH engineer.

[intime-nick]

My own setup in our classic rock covers band (own PA) :

bass - line6 XD-V75 wireless - XLR out of wireless to input of XR18 mixer - signal split into two channels in the mixer - both channels go through the stereo sansamp effects processor built into the XR18 - one channel to FOH, one channel to my IEMs (Sennheiser EW300G3 and UE6 Pro or LUGS Quads) - run in stereo.  Both channels are eq'd and processed differently to get what i need from the PA and the IEMs (for example, i run the speaker sim on my IEM channel and not the FOH)

it's taken a bit of faffing around to get the sounds how i want them but now it rarely changes from gig to gig and i get the same, repeatable sound from both PA and IEMs.  The two guitarists run small amps on stage and i feed some bass back through the monitors for them and the drummer uses a nice e-kit, IEMs and a Porter & Davies haptic drum throne.  In all my years of gigging, we now how the simplest, best sounding setup i've ever played in

i should add, i used to use a Helix LT in front of the mixer but can get the same core sound directly from the mixer (LT up for sale if anyone is interested 😉 ) so i don't even bother with that anymore

 

the only downside to all this is that i now am set up in less time than it takes for one guitarist to plug in his cab and mic it up and find myself becoming the roadie or setting up all the PA !

Edited June 18, 2019 by intime-nick

[EBS_freak]

24 minutes ago, intime-nick said:

My own setup in our classic rock covers band (own PA) :

bass - line6 XD-V75 wireless - XLR out of wireless to input of XR18 mixer - signal split into two channels in the mixer - both channels go through the stereo sansamp effects processor built into the XR18 - one channel to FOH, one channel to my IEMs (Sennheiser EW300G3 and UE6 Pro or LUGS Quads) - run in stereo.  Both channels are eq'd and processed differently to get what i need from the PA and the IEMs (for example, i run the speaker sim on my IEM channel and not the FOH)

it's taken a bit of faffing around to get the sounds how i want them but now it rarely changes from gig to gig and i get the same, repeatable sound from both PA and IEMs.  The two guitarists run small amps on stage and i feed some bass back through the monitors for them and the drummer uses a nice e-kit, IEMs and a Porter & Davies haptic drum throne.  In all my years of gigging, we now how the simplest, best sounding setup i've ever played in

i should add, i used to use a Helix LT in front of the mixer but can get the same core sound directly from the mixer (LT up for sale if anyone is interested 😉 ) so i don't even bother with that anymore

 

the only downside to all this is that i now am set up in less time than it takes for one guitarist to plug in his cab and mic it up and find myself becoming the roadie or setting up all the PA !

Nick describes one of the best "hacks" (for want of a better word) that you can do with a digital desk. That split on a single desk gives you a monitor world and foh desk in one (obviously you'll need enough channels on the desk to double up on stuff that you'll want to process differently for your inears).

It's very rare that what you want to hear in your IEMs is the same as what you'll want foh. Some of the time, we just have to deal with it - eg, just come off the aux with only a master EQ and maybe a compressor over that aux bus. Lets face it, that's still pretty cool. As Nick states however, the ability to put a cab emulation in place, or different EQs per channel for example, is a powerful way of supercharing your IEM mix. Think about this - if you boost the bass for you IEMs, especially in the low end, to give you that big thumpy bass we all like, you are going to be killing people out front - especially if you are running subwoofers. You aren't going to be wanting that bass EQ to the vocal however, which is what you are limited to with just the final EQ over the aux bus output. Again, being able to run different processing in your ears, in terms of reverbs etc, is also really nice. A lot of the time you'll want mono out front, but things like tight stereo delays can really help thicken up that IEM mix.

Digital desks are modellers are so good now, its a great way to simplify your setup, give you a better sound out front... and save your ears. I hate gigging without my IEM mix. 

[Sharkfinger]

We don't generally put bass through the PA so most of the time I take care of my amplification and usually that's more than enough for the venue.  Not all band members are on IEMs, either, so need on-stage amp.

That being said, I put the bass into my In-Ears, as long with 'more me' mix of vocals.  This is so I can always hear what I'm playing and singing, independent of stage volume.

The signal used to come from effect loop out from my amp but now I take it from the Sansamp BDDI on my board.  

My amp still gets DI'd for the IEMs of band-mates that use them.  Weren't enough monitor channels on the mixer to give me my own monitor mix, anyway.

EDIT: I have one of these on my board: http://rolls.com/product/PM351

Edited June 18, 2019 by Sharkfinger

[intime-nick]

i should qualify that i'm running mono to FOH and stereo to my IEMs  - the ability to pan guitars and vocals (in the case of our band with two guitars and three vocals) is a major bonus of a stereo IEM setup and i also use a small amount of reverb on my IEMs for a more natural sound.  The advantage of the sansamp stereo guitar effect on the XR18 is that i can run two totally different sounds on each side of the effect and only use one FX insert slot on the mixer 

Edited June 18, 2019 by intime-nick

[intime-nick]

2 minutes ago, Sharkfinger said:

We don't generally put bass through the PA so most of the time I take care of my amplification and usually that's more than enough for the venue.  Not all band members are on IEMs, either, so need on-stage amp.

That being said, I put the bass into my In-Ears, as long with 'more me' mix of vocals.  This is so I can always hear what I'm playing and singing, independent of stage volume.

The signal used to come from effect loop out from my amp but now I take it from the Sansamp BDDI on my board.  

My amp still gets DI'd for the IEMs of band-mates that use them.  Weren't enough monitor channels on the mixer to give me my own monitor mix, anyway.

our two guitarist don't use IEMs either so i just add some bass to their floor monitors to get a good balanced on-stage sound for them - it helps having decent(ish) floor monitors - either Yamaha DBR15s or DXR12's depending on the area we have to set up in

[M@23]

7 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

"Feeling the bass" is a bit of over exaggerated term in my experience. When you stand in front of your amp, you aren't really capturing that feeling of "big air". Try it with your amp - pump that volume up and see how hard you have to drive it to get even the remotest feeling of "trouser flap". You are more likely feeling the vibrations through the attached surfaces. In which case, get a haptic feedback device, be it something like a platform, woojer or backbeat.

That's what I was about to reply. Just did a big festival this weekend, 2 sets with, 2 bands. The supplied Rig was an SVT and 8x10. It had that whole 'feel' thing... I never like it. You can 'feel' it alright, but (to me) it always sounds a mess. Especially as it is at the back of the stage, and I'm at the front where my mic is... Blasphemy, right. Second set I didn't even use it, just went Helix > FOH. No IEM for this one, used the L Acoustic wedges, which were insanely powerful. 

[EBS_freak]

9 minutes ago, M@23 said:

That's what I was about to reply. Just did a big festival this weekend, 2 sets with, 2 bands. The supplied Rig was an SVT and 8x10. It had that whole 'feel' thing... I never like it. You can 'feel' it alright, but (to me) it always sounds a mess. Especially as it is at the back of the stage, and I'm at the front where my mic is... Blasphemy, right. Second set I didn't even use it, just went Helix > FOH. No IEM for this one, used the L Acoustic wedges, which were insanely powerful. 

And let me guess, you feel it out of phase? Or should I say, with a significant delay.

Edited June 18, 2019 by EBS_freak