Guitar myths...

[mcnach]

 

I actually agree with just about everything, with a couple of little qualifications in places. It even contains the "best bass for metal" (kind of) issue... 

Just a bit of fun

 

 

[Cuzzie]

Well I heard the neck fingerboard difference, and he actually said there was a difference, so it can matter!!!

[BigRedX]

2 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Well I heard the neck fingerboard difference, and he actually said there was a difference, so it can matter!!!

Yes but the difference was tiny and in a band mix would be completely lost. Also the construction of a neck with a rosewood fingerboard is different to an all-maple one, so is the slight tonal difference due to the woods or the construction or a bit of both?

Or was the difference down to the fact that he had taken the neck off the guitar and put it back on in a slightly different way?

Edited June 18, 2019 by BigRedX

[Cuzzie]

7 hours ago, BigRedX said:

Yes but the difference was tiny and in a band mix would be completely lost. Also the construction of a neck with a rosewood fingerboard is different to an all-maple one, so is the slight tonal difference due to the woods or the construction or a bit of both?

Or was the difference down to the fact that he had taken the neck off the guitar and put it back on in a slightly different way?

This has been hashed to death with people in either camp. Will it get lost in the mix? depends how the band is set up sonically and the instruments - the band could be 1 guitar and a load of Kazoo’s, so yes a difference could potentially be heard.

Is it a 1 piece maple, is it a maple with a maple top? The maple/maple still sounds different to maple and (insert here) fingerboard.

The myth was they don’t sound different, they clearly do by yours and his admission - hence there is no myth. 

Whether that makes a difference to you or not, feel aside is your shout.

I do agree with a bit of what he said

[BigRedX]

Yes but once again we had a sample size of one of each which is scientifically meaningless.

Also he didn't test (or at least we didn't hear the results) to see what tonal changes are achieved simply by removing and re-attaching the same neck, which is an essential control experiment.

And finally the results for these two examples were the opposite way around to what "tone wood" believers tell us to expect.

My problem with "tone wood" is not that it doesn't make a difference, but that it doesn't make a predictable difference, or from what I have heard, make a massively perceptible difference. 

When someone takes the time and effort to do proper scientific testing with proper controls with a decent sample size (at least 100 of each type of wood) and gets results that are consistently similar and significantly noticeable for each species of wood that are are also consistently different between different species then I'll admit that the type of wood used in the construction of a solid electric instruments is important for aspects other than looks.

[itu]

40 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

My problem with "tone wood" is not that it doesn't make a difference...

When someone takes the time and effort to do proper scientific testing with proper controls with a decent sample size (at least 100 of each type of wood) and gets results that are consistently similar and significantly noticeable...

These are very good points. Psychoacoustics is something else than just pure measurable numbers. When we talk about wood, the material itself is so varied, that a very consistent result would make us suspect the test (or the tester).

It would be reasonable to accept that there is a pretty wide variety within the same wood species, even within the same log. A local luthier (has produced over 1 000 acoustic instruments) said, that he can not say, what the sound will be in the ready instrument. There are not two alike. So maple may sound like rosewood and rosewood like maple simply because of the variety (and excluding the complexity of the complete instrument). OK, you like the looks of the other so you may like its sound, too. This should be fine, shouldn't it.

If there is a comfortable zone for someone, it should be honored. It may look bad (for the watcher) but if the player likes it and sounds good (or bad!), no worries, mate. It is strange that a psychological point of view is often neglected or bypassed although it means far more than, let's say materials. There are quite many fanboys, here, but we probably close our eyes in front of the mirror. Objectivity is extremely hard when it is about me and my beliefs.

[Cuzzie]

Yes it is an organic material, There will be cross over in their properties, depending on grain, growth circumstances, how long it has dried for, any curing etc. Age of wood, cellular structure, however actually there will be a ‘sound’ within each species.

The luthier rightly cannot predict what the exact sound will be, but I bet he knows when he combines woods what the ball park will be.

Like I said, despite hearing a difference in the woods no matter which way round one is supposed to be, there was an audible difference, and everything said points to tonal differences between woods be it minor or major, maybe someone will get the P number to 0.05 and get us statistically significant result....

[Nicko]

Oh, I was expecting this to be Jazz basses are better than P Basses.  I'll get my coat..

[Cuzzie]

26 minutes ago, Nicko said:

Oh, I was expecting this to be Jazz basses are better than P Basses.  I'll get my coat..

I can cover that one, they are not, just different...

[b7l4s]

There was a thread on here earlier this week that I nearly commented on regarding choice of wood for neck and fretboard etc. but I didn’t want to derail that discussion with something that might attract ‘opinions’ that were irrelevant to the point… Given the interesting comments in this thread on how the choice of wood affects the tone (or not), this might be a better place to ask my question? Which is:

It is my perception that there are more rosewood/dark fretboard-ed basses than maple/light coloured ones in general. But is that really true, or am I being fooled because I usually look for a maple fretboard? And if it is true, why? Both maple and rosewood are offered by many manufacturers, so for whatever reason, there must be healthy demand for both.

I’ve been playing long enough to know what I like, which is all I care about when it comes to ‘this one is better than that one’ arguments, but is there a cost or ease-of-manufacture thing going on here, or just market forces, or something else? I happen to like a maple fretboard, simply because I seem able to ‘navigate’ it better, especially in bad light, but when bass-shopping a lot of instruments that I might look at more closely get passed over because they have a RW board… which I know I’ll get tired of.

And in relation to the OP – a lot of this video makes perfect sense to me too, especially the stuff like vintage isn’t always best, just because it’s old or from the golden era. There is plenty of junk out there from the 50’s, 60’s and 70’s, just like there is plenty of junk with the cellophane still on. The value of something new or old to any individual is subjective, but the prices are often ludicrous (imo)…

Apologies for the long post btw...

[Cuzzie]

@b7l4sInteresting thought that is.........

All postulation, but... maybe most necks being maple a block/blank is made, cut and awaits rod insertion before gluing a top on. Maybe you have a whole heap of fingerboard blanks in pre cut strips, but have the maple in blocks if you get my drift.

Of course there are 1 piece necks that don’t need a fingerboard, but then a stripe need cutting out, rod inserted and strip glued in.

may just be easier to machine a load of necks to accept a board, stick a board on (mainly not maple as it is mainly being used for the necks) and hey presto.

I could of course be talking codswallop

[BigRedX]

21 hours ago, b7l4s said:

It is my perception that there are more rosewood/dark fretboard-ed basses than maple/light coloured ones in general. But is that really true, or am I being fooled because I usually look for a maple fretboard? And if it is true, why? Both maple and rosewood are offered by many manufacturers, so for whatever reason, there must be healthy demand for both.

I think the reason why there are more basses with dark colours fingerboards than light coloured ones is because there is a larger variety of dark coloured woods that make suitable fingerboard material. I have basses with Ebony, Cocobolo, Wenge, Indian Rosewood and Brazilian Rosewood boards - and those are just the basses where I know for sure what the fingerboard material is. Light coloured fingerboards tend to be limited to maple.

Also a light coloured board will need some form of protective coating to prevent it from getting dirty and nasty looking which adds more processes and time to the construction of the instrument.

All in all there are more wood choices available and less build time involved in producing a bass or guitar with a dark coloured fingerboard.

[b7l4s]

2 hours ago, BigRedX said:

All in all there are more wood choices available and less build time involved in producing a bass or guitar with a dark coloured fingerboard.

Thanks for those replies Cuzzie and BigRedX - I hadn't considered the larger variety of darker woods, or the fact that darker wood is often uncoated in this application. It makes more sense now, especially in mass produced instruments.

 

[tauzero]

On 18/06/2019 at 21:48, Cuzzie said:

Well I heard the neck fingerboard difference, and he actually said there was a difference, so it can matter!!!

I heard the difference too. However, I got which was which wrong, and that was basing my selection on what the reported difference is.

[mcnach]

On 18/06/2019 at 21:48, Cuzzie said:

Well I heard the neck fingerboard difference, and he actually said there was a difference, so it can matter!!!

 

I heard a difference. I don't know what it was due to.

I design experiments and analyse data for a living... That was not a real experiment

[mcnach]

On 19/06/2019 at 07:09, Cuzzie said:

This has been hashed to death with people in either camp. Will it get lost in the mix? depends how the band is set up sonically and the instruments - the band could be 1 guitar and a load of Kazoo’s, so yes a difference could potentially be heard.

Is it a 1 piece maple, is it a maple with a maple top? The maple/maple still sounds different to maple and (insert here) fingerboard.

The myth was they don’t sound different, they clearly do by yours and his admission - hence there is no myth. 

Whether that makes a difference to you or not, feel aside is your shout.

I do agree with a bit of what he said

 

If you take a couple of instruments that look and are built the same, they often still sound different, as I'm sure you might have experienced in a shop when shopping for a specific instrument...

[mcnach]

On 19/06/2019 at 08:36, BigRedX said:

Yes but once again we had a sample size of one of each which is scientifically meaningless.

Also he didn't test (or at least we didn't hear the results) to see what tonal changes are achieved simply by removing and re-attaching the same neck, which is an essential control experiment.

And finally the results for these two examples were the opposite way around to what "tone wood" believers tell us to expect.

My problem with "tone wood" is not that it doesn't make a difference, but that it doesn't make a predictable difference, or from what I have heard, make a massively perceptible difference. 

When someone takes the time and effort to do proper scientific testing with proper controls with a decent sample size (at least 100 of each type of wood) and gets results that are consistently similar and significantly noticeable for each species of wood that are are also consistently different between different species then I'll admit that the type of wood used in the construction of a solid electric instruments is important for aspects other than looks.

 

Good points well made.

[Cuzzie]

7 minutes ago, mcnach said:

 

I heard a difference. I don't know what it was due to.

I design experiments and analyse data for a living... That was not a real experiment

Don’t get my wrong I have to critically appraise studies and data as well.

if we take it to the nth degree you are talking about cultivating a number of trees from cuttings from the same 2 different types of trees and then growing them in the same controlled conditions, fell them and process them the same before assembly side by side the same etc. You get the drift.....!

[mcnach]

7 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Don’t get my wrong I have to critically appraise studies and data as well.

if we take it to the nth degree you are talking about cultivating a number of trees from cuttings from the same 2 different types of trees and then growing them in the same controlled conditions, fell them and process them the same before assembly side by side the same etc. You get the drift.....!

 

No need to get that far, and that would not work either because the trees will not grow to be identical anyway.

My view is that there is so much variation between similar instruments, that even if say maple 'tended' to be brighter, the effect is small enough to not really be a factor when designing an electric instrument, especially considering how the results cannot be predicted with any degree of accuracy. 

I'd be happy enough taking a single instrument and trying similarly constructed necks, just with different fretboard materials, say 100 of each, and see what the spread of the data is in each case. My empirical and non-statistically significant experience suggests the spread would be quite wide and the overlaps very large. There may be tendencies for some woods to be darker or brighter... but if we continue discussing this without reaching an agreement it's probably an indication that there is not a clear cut answer. Much like in Jazz vs Precision threads there is never a clear winner. 

[Mykesbass]

15 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

I heard a difference. I don't know what it was due to.

I design experiments and analyse data for a living... That was not a real experiment

Do you think this could ever be done as a real experiment?

Asked this before seeing your later post, but would still be interested in your opinion of whether a valid experiment could be set up.

Edited June 24, 2019 by Mykesbass

[Cuzzie]

7 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

No need to get that far, and that would not work either because the trees will not grow to be identical anyway.

My view is that there is so much variation between similar instruments, that even if say maple 'tended' to be brighter, the effect is small enough to not really be a factor when designing an electric instrument, especially considering how the results cannot be predicted with any degree of accuracy. 

I'd be happy enough taking a single instrument and trying similarly constructed necks, just with different fretboard materials, say 100 of each, and see what the spread of the data is in each case. My empirical and non-statistically significant experience suggests the spread would be quite wide and the overlaps very large. There may be tendencies for some woods to be darker or brighter... but if we continue discussing this without reaching an agreement it's probably an indication that there is not a clear cut answer. Much like in Jazz vs Precision threads there is never a clear winner. 

Again I don’t disagree with you, however someone would always say that the growing area of that tree was different to the other, and that warehouse storage facility had a humidity and temp slightly different etc.

Controlling every aspect from growth through to assembly and making them even/optimal for the particular species of wood, would give the answer.

You are right about being like jazz vs precision except we are not looking for a winner, they are just different 

[BigRedX]

3 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Again I don’t disagree with you, however someone would always say that the growing area of that tree was different to the other, and that warehouse storage facility had a humidity and temp slightly different etc.

Controlling every aspect from growth through to assembly and making them even/optimal for the particular species of wood, would give the answer.

Exactly!

Which is why all the current "tone wood" "experiments" are completely meaningless, and irrelevant.

[mcnach]

18 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

Again I don’t disagree with you, however someone would always say that the growing area of that tree was different to the other, and that warehouse storage facility had a humidity and temp slightly different etc.

Controlling every aspect from growth through to assembly and making them even/optimal for the particular species of wood, would give the answer.

You are right about being like jazz vs precision except we are not looking for a winner, they are just different 

 

Exactly.

That's why the only 'practical' (for a strange definition of practical, I admit  ) way I see to address this is to use a single body/pickup set/strings and attach to it a large number of similarly produced necks, some rosewood, some maple fingerboards. There can be other factors such as how well the necks have been fitted etc, but with a large enough sample the effects could be ignored if we accept they willl randomly affect both types of neck. Then start measuring and get plotting. Get a sense for just how much variation there is within each type, and how the two populations compare to one another. 

I'd expect to see that the variation within each type is larger than between types.

Maybe I'm wrong, of course.

Either way, I'd expect that it would illustrate quite well why it's hard to predict the result, even if there may be a slight tendency to favour one direction. Measuring the variation could also be interesting to illustrate how big the effect -if it exists- is. Or rather, how small, and how little it means when you consider the signal processing applied to any bass output, especially in a band mix.

Just my expectations. I'm certainly not interested enough to go to the trouble to do this

Which is why 20 years from now someone else will be having the same discussion

 

[mcnach]

18 hours ago, Mykesbass said:

Do you think this could ever be done as a real experiment?

Asked this before seeing your later post, but would still be interested in your opinion of whether a valid experiment could be set up.

 

I don't think you can compare two instruments and say that any differences are due to one particular component, no.

But you can, in theory, devise a way to measure the effect of any given component, by having a single instrument where you try multiple units of the component you want to measure: essentially keeping everything the same except that one component. 

Whether anyone should be bothered, is another matter

 

[rushbo]

I agreed with pretty much everything he said. Find a guitar you like and play it however you like. Just play it.