GK/Hartke/SomethingElse upgrade advice

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='359157' date='Dec 19 2008, 08:56 PM'].......snip...........
so what would you recommend as a good partner to the LH500 head?[/quote]
You have to buy something [b]you[/b] like the sound of - not what we recommend cos our sound may not be your sound. You have to be careful cos there is a lot of gear out there. Look at whats in your budget and whats for sale on here cos you can get some good stuff used. I would look at a pair of 2x10 cabs to give you a 4x10 thats easier to manage and budget for. But if you try a 2x10/1x15 combo you like the sound of get that - just dont believe thats what you have to use.

You might see a lot of your favourite bass players using 15 and 10's in their stage rigs but these are often just for show like the floor monitors. Look at their ears. If they are mearing in ear monitors then all the stuff onstage is just props

[Al Heeley]

Not too many 4 Ohm 4 x 10 cabs to choose from unless you get into much bigger money. Most of the mainstream mass produced (therefore affordable on my budget) seem to be straight 410 8 ohm cabs.
Same goes for 2 x 12 cabs which are everywhere for lead guitar amps but very limited choice for bass. I see GK do one but it's a lot of money. This surprises me as I'd thought bass would benefit more from a 2 x 12 compared to a 2 x 10. I'm presuming a 2 x 12 guitar cab would not take too kindly to high power low frequencies forcing through it...?
Another good reason for spending more on 2 cabs (210 + 115) is you can drive your head at 4 Ohms therefore bigger wattage, and you also gain the flexibility of choosing one of the cabs for smaller venues when you're not needing so much volume.

[bass_ferret]

No you wont find many 4 phm cabs anywhere these days apart from some premium makes. 2 ohm amps are getting rarer and more expensive and so are the cabs to go with them. For some reason the same is true of 2x12 cabs - lots of choice if you have plenty of money but the budget choice seems to often be between 2x10's and 1x15's.

I cant get my head round why you dont seem to understand that 2 2x10's is the same as a 4x10

[Al Heeley]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='359726' date='Dec 20 2008, 05:17 PM']I cant get my head round why you dont seem to understand that 2 2x10's is the same as a 4x10 [/quote]Um, I must have missed that bit, where did i say that? I was interested in one 2 x 10 cab together with one 1 x 15 cab as a more flexible option to having one 4 x 10 cab.
plus side: you can vary your setup according to venue, you get to run two cabs at 4 ohms, you can cart each one about easier
down side: a 210 + a 115 are more expensive that one 4 x 10 from same mfr range. Most 410's run at 8 ohms so you're not getting your full power rating out of the head.
Due to budget I'd rather go for a single 410 than two 210's, but best of all I'd like a 15" and two 10"'s. I'd also like a bigger budget.

[silverfoxnik]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='359923' date='Dec 20 2008, 10:06 PM']I'd also like a bigger budget.[/quote]
Never a more true word spoken on this forum

For the record, a while back my rig consisted of a GK 700RB which cost me £210 on Ebay and a Peavey TVX 410 which cost me about £130 on Basschat and together, those two items sounded great for under £350 (including shipping).

More recently, I upgraded the TVX to an SWR Triad, which cost me £200, and then I changed the GK to an Eden Nemesis NA650 which cost £310. Those two items all together cost just over £500 and were bought here on Basschat - from very helpful and friendly Basschatters I might add - and they sound even better.

So I think with your budget of £550 you've got a lot of options.. Good luck with it!

[Mister_E]

Just thought I should put in a good word on the side of Hartke Amps; I've been using an original 3500 for, er.. 16 years! still going strong- I especially like the tube/solid state preamp 'cause you can dial in some nice growl for rock style playing or keep it squeaky clean for 'pop'.
This is also a real valve you can 'upgrade' to give a slightly different response - not a 'simulator' circuit.

Other than that I've only ever tried Ashdown and Trace Elliot, neither seemed to cut it for me sadly.

I recently blew my 15 inch Hartke driver so I too am on the hunt for a cab which I thought I had decided on getting a 410XL but reading this thread is making me wonder.
I've got a feeling that although two 2x10 cabs give you the same number of speakers I doubt if they give you the same sensitivty from the combined cabs?
I always feel bass needs a bigger speaker cab to provide more air to move to get more 'bottom'.
I may be wrong and I don't know enough to get embroiled in a techy discussion about internal volumes and frequencies etc.

Meanwhile I have all the parts to build a BFM Omni15 TB but no chance of getting it done this year!

I guess all this can get very confusing. Best to keep an open mind, try out as many different rigs as you can manage and find the one which suits you and your music and your wallet!!
I'll also wish you luck in your noble quest. May the gods of music and wisdom smile upon you

[johnnylager]

[quote name='tinyviking' post='360006' date='Dec 21 2008, 12:43 AM']I've got a feeling that although two 2x10 cabs give you the same number of speakers I doubt if they give you the same sensitivty from the combined cabs?
I always feel bass needs a bigger speaker cab to provide more air to move to get more 'bottom'.
I may be wrong and I don't know enough to get embroiled in a techy discussion about internal volumes and frequencies etc.[/quote]
2 x 2x10's may well give more internal volume in the cab per speaker, as keeping a 2x10 small isn't as critical as a 4x10. Probably. You could also stack the 2x10's on their sides to [among other things] bring the speakers nearer your ears. It's all horses for courses though - get out and try as many as you can - which is easier said then done.

My personal opinions are i - spend as much as you can & ii - get it as light as possible.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='359923' date='Dec 20 2008, 10:06 PM']...best of all I'd like a 15" and two 10"'s.[/quote]

Read this again:

[quote name='alexclaber' post='359059' date='Dec 19 2008, 07:05 PM']That's certainly the commonly held yet incorrect wisdom. The reality is that it's completely dependent on the specific cabs - my old 2x10" cabs had more bottom than almost any 15" whilst my new smaller 1x15" cab has more punch than the vast majority of 2x10"s (and can play louder and move more air). My larger 15" cab has more bottom and more punch than any 4x10" I know of (but that's a big expensive beastie!) If you find a cab that works well for you but it doesn't play loud enough, adding another matching cab is often the best solution.

I've been trying to work out a good way of explaining about mixing and matching cabs. Say we can describe cab A as producing an output of 7 in the lows 9 in the mids and 8 in the highs, whilst cab B produces 8 in the lows 8 in the mids and 4 in the highs. You might think that combining the two will we you 15 in the lows 17 in the mids and 12 in the highs because the outputs just add up. But it isn't like that - because the cabs are different some of the output adds but some of it subtracts. So the pairing might more likely get you 13 in the lows 14 in the mids and 11 in the highs - and you never know until you test the pairing. But if you get two of cab A then the outputs will totally add, no subtraction at all - so 14 in the lows, 18 in the mids and 16 in the highs. So even though cab B might have more bottom than cab A, adding cab B to cab A might not give you as much bottom as adding cab A to cab A. Likewise although cab A has more mids than cab B, adding cab A to cab B might not actually get you more mids than adding another cab B to cab B. Strange but true![/quote]

Alex

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='359923' date='Dec 20 2008, 10:06 PM']Um, I must have missed that bit, where did i say that? I was interested in one 2 x 10 cab together with one 1 x 15 cab as a more flexible option to having one 4 x 10 cab.
plus side: you can vary your setup according to venue, you get to run two cabs at 4 ohms, you can cart each one about easier
down side: a 210 + a 115 are more expensive that one 4 x 10 from same mfr range. Most 410's run at 8 ohms so you're not getting your full power rating out of the head.
Due to budget I'd rather go for a single 410 than two 210's, but best of all I'd like a 15" and two 10"'s. I'd also like a bigger budget.[/quote]
Wouldn't we all.

How is having 2 2x10's less flexible than having a 2x10 and 1x15? Dont forget that 1x15's are usually bigger than 2x10's.

[phil_the_bassist]

[quote name='alexclaber' post='360100' date='Dec 21 2008, 10:58 AM']Read this again:



Alex[/quote]

For the first time ever, I get what you mean! nice one Alex!

[Rich]

Sure, there's a lot of wisdom and great experience here, but what it comes down to is this:[quote name='bass_ferret' post='359267' date='Dec 19 2008, 11:12 PM']You have to buy something [b]you[/b] like the sound of - not what we recommend cos our sound may not be your sound.[/quote]
Absolutely positively and definitely +1. Try everything you can find within your budget, and some stuff just over too. It's your sound, you've got to be happy with it. Use the advice here as a solid basis but not as total must-be-obeyed gospel. In the end, trust your ears.
Good luck and have fun searching!

[Stan_da_man]

Go secondhand! I got my Bergantino cab secondhand in excellent condition and knocks the socks off any other 2x10 I've played (so far).

[Al Heeley]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='360122' date='Dec 21 2008, 11:42 AM']Wouldn't we all.

How is having 2 2x10's less flexible than having a 2x10 and 1x15? Dont forget that 1x15's are usually bigger than 2x10's.[/quote]
Well if you have 2 cabs the same, then you have 2 options:
1) Use one cab
2) use both cabs
If one cab is a 2 x 10 and one cab is a 1 x 15 I'm presuming there would be some defference in tonal quality between the two otherwise there would be no-=one bothering to make all these different sized speakers, right? So then you get 3 options:
1) Use the 2 x 10
2) use the 1 x 15
3) use them both together. Hence 50% more options depending on the sound you want and the venue.
Am I missing something here?
I get Alex's point about the adding/subtracting between different cabs but his comparison about comparing his very expensive 15" cab to any other 4 x 10 is not that valid, what I have to find out is the mixing of same manufacturer same product range 10's and 15's to see if their combination of 10's and 15's together is better or worse than adding 2 identical cabs the same. Sadly the only true test is when the rig is set up with the band for a practice at gig volume. You can never get a good feel for it in a shop but at least you can hope for some approximation.

Edited December 21, 2008 by Al Heeley

[bass_ferret]

No you wont. If you get two different cabs one of three things will happen.

1. You will prefer the sound of one cab and use that all the time.
2. You will like the sound of both equally and will use whichever is the most convenient.
3. If you play some venues often enough you may decide by trial and error that different venues suit different cabs.

The last does require some application. I found that some venues suited my old EBS Neo 1x10/1x12 stack (that were designed to be used together - an important point sometimes overlooked), while other venues suited the Neo 212 cab I had as well. But I did have the luxury of loads of cabs to f*** around with and the budget to buy something else if I wasted money on something that did not work.

Alex point about phase cancellation applies to all cabs, not just his. All cabs make a noise because the drivers move out and in, pushing and sucking the air to make sound. If you have one cab pushing and one cab sucking the cabs are said to be out of phase and the result is phase cancellation and that is what Alex is describing above. Phase changes with frequency and different cabs could be in phase in the bass and treble and out of phase in the mids, for example. It is possible some makers make sure that the cabs are always in phase but this is likely to be limited to premium gear - its unlikely to bother makers of budget gear.

Now all this is complete bollocks if you like the sound of whatever phase cancellation is going on and lot of players do - either that or they are standing so close the the rig they can only hear the top cab. If you can demo gear and maybe even try it out you can work all this out. But if you are buying cheap gear from the internet or used gear off the forum pages it becomes more important.

Edited December 21, 2008 by bass_ferret

[Al Heeley]

This is solid advice, Ferrert - thanks. I will spend a couple of days holiday between Xmas and new year touring round the music shops of Manchester and Leeds to try as many different heads and cabs as possible, accompanied by my critically-eared lead guitar buddy. Hopefully this will then narrow down the attractive options and I can get myself a new rig sorted early in the new year.
In the meantime, I have 2 marshall amps up for sale and would have a far bigger budget to play with for the new rig if any kind person would be interested in investing in my immaculate 6101 30th anniversary stack or the solid workhorse MB150 bass combo

Edited December 22, 2008 by Al Heeley

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='360309' date='Dec 21 2008, 04:31 PM']Am I missing something here?[/quote]

One thing I'd highlight is that if you can find a less expensive 15" with enough midrange punch and treble then it is highly likely to be able to move more air than an equivalent 2x10" (more cone area and usually more excursion). So two matching 15"s will give you more output than a 2x10"+15". If you find that in your price range you need to go with a 2x10" to get that punch then definitely try a pair of those rather than automatically assuming that because the 15" cab has more bottom than the 2x10" that the 2x10"+15" will have more bottom than two 2x10"s - there's a good chance they won't.

What often catches people out with amplification is they make assumptions and then when they come to test gear out they subconsciously let their assumptions affect their judgement. Always question what you hear and remember that room acoustics have a huge effect so if you don't compare the cabs in identical positions in the same room then it isn't an accurate comparison - just moving a cab a foot or two could have a huge effect upon the response you hear.

Another thing - when trying out cabs experiment with tilting them backwards so you can hear the midrange and treble better. Also always try turning 2x10" cabs on their side, much better audibility that way.

Alex

Edited December 22, 2008 by alexclaber

[Paul S]

Ok, stand by for the stupidest question anyone ever asked, ever.

Standing 2 x 10 on their side. Ok - I have my Ashdown MAG210 combo... what harm, if any, can it do to stand this on it's side? I mean - is there any reason it was made with 'this side up' type features or is it a case of Ashdown having to arbitrarily opt for making it to stand a certain way and that's it?




There, told you it was stupid.

[Merton]

It's the way it is coz the amp section fits nicely with that width.

Put it on its side, it'll probably sound better

[Al Heeley]

I guess its easier to twiddle the knobs when they'r all lined up the same height. Can't see a problem with a solid state amp head whatever orientation. I'd be a little worried about valve amp tubes rattling themselves loose if they are not vertical, but that is pure conjecture on my part.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='Al Heeley' post='360798' date='Dec 22 2008, 11:13 AM']This is solid advice, Ferrert - thanks. snip...........[/quote]
The new nice Ferret has patience

[mr_russ]

I'm often amazed at how good the peavey 4x10tvx sounds - silverfoxnik's peavey 4x10 w/gk 700rb was a wicked rig

they are heavy though ;D

[johnnylager]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='361141' date='Dec 22 2008, 04:09 PM']The new nice Ferret has patience [/quote]
Despite the best efforts of some.

[stingrayfan]

Go secondhand - you get more for your cash. Most gear takes a massive depreciation hit straight after the box is opened. Also - if it's secondhand, you won't be so worried about it getting it knocked around in the car.

That said, budget for decent custom made covers from somewhere like Silverstone Covers. About £40 for a 4x10 and worth every penny. Keep the rain (and the beer) off your cabs!