Boss SY-1

[Stub Mandrel]

59 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

There are already things that do this:

https://www.andertons.co.uk/sonuus-g2m-version-3-audio-1-4-jack-to-midi-converter-for-guitar-bass-voice-and-wind-instruments-sonuusg2m?lgw_code=16284-SONUUSG2M&gclid=CjwKCAjwwvfrBRBIEiwA2nFiPXsB8enQjvV96KG1BJQO_RSVLnb5zmB3Xy374j34CH34e8A_N8BIrRoCnQAQAvD_BwE

I was about to hit 'buy' but " The G2M is designed for solo instrumental lines meaning it does not support polyphonic input (i.e. it will only detect solo guitar notes - not full chords). "

I think I will try this with my focusrite:

https://www.jamorigin.com/

[fretmeister]

I’ve given in and ordered the Boss.

Nobody has stock and the next load isn’t due until end of October, but if I didn’t order now I’d blow the money on something else!

I am so weak.

[paulbuzz]

On 14/09/2019 at 20:59, Stub Mandrel said:

(Back in the 80s it was the only disco song all us rock types would dance to! Oh who remembers the Aberystwyth Pier Disco circa 1982)

Ugh! - now you're scaring me - I actually do remember.
Though I hasten to add I was not a frequent attendee.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, fretmeister said:

I’ve given in and ordered the Boss.

Nobody has stock and the next load isn’t due until end of October, but if I didn’t order now I’d blow the money on something else!

I am so weak.

Well that's 3 out of the first 4 posters on this thread now accounted for then! 😀

 

[Stub Mandrel]

12 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

Ugh! - now you're scaring me - I actually do remember.
Though I hasten to add I was not a frequent attendee.

Do we know each other? If you were in Aberocsoc you would have known me as Joey - probably.

[Stub Mandrel]

I tried Migi, it doesn't work below ~A/B on a bass and struggled with a guitar but part of that might be my setup

[Cuzzie]

45 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Do we know each other? If you were in Aberocsoc you would have known me as Joey - probably.

Don’t get me started about St Tud’s when I was there, great times......

[paulbuzz]

8 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Do we know each other? If you were in Aberocsoc you would have known me as Joey - probably.

Don't think so. Were you a student there at that point? I was still in 6th form in school.

Back on topic, I like your idea that it would be nice if the SY-1's highly touted polyphonic pitch-detection abilities were available via MIDI for external use.
Seems like perhaps Boss missed a trick in not including a mini-USB socket that could have made this possible?
( Never bleedin' satisfied, are we! 🙄 )

[Woodinblack]

11 minutes ago, paulbuzz said:

Don't think so. Were you a student there at that point? I was still in 6th form in school.

Back on topic, I like your idea that it would be nice if the SY-1's highly touted polyphonic pitch-detection abilities were available via MIDI for external use.
Seems like perhaps Boss missed a trick in not including a mini-USB socket that could have made this possible?
( Never bleedin' satisfied, are we! 🙄 )

Sometimes these things are easier than they seem. I know on a technical note on the midi out on the GR-33 / GR-5 etc, uf you look at the midi out of those devices it isn't very good. Problem is the time it takes to convert a bass note is quite long, but to get rid of the delay you need to make a 'best guess' of the note. The GR-5 does this by picking a pitch and then as it stabilises what that pitch is it whacks the pitch bend to get it to the right note - it is very very messy. There is also quite a lag on the midi out compared to the internal synths which don't have to deal with midi.

Also midi itself is fairly slow compared to the internal sound.. So by the time you have worked out what you think the pitch is, you start the internal synth, then  you have to send out a note on, which is a channel number, note on message with pitch, note on velocity, which is 3 * 10 bits at 31250bps, or just less than a millisecond. Or if you hit 5 string at the same time, 5ms.  ok for pads, less use for leads. And this is at the same time as doing everything else.

So i agree, it would be good to have, but maybe this pedal is already fantastic value and maybe we hope for the next one for that

 

[paulbuzz]

5 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Sometimes these things are easier than they seem. I know on a technical note on the midi out on the GR-33 / GR-5 etc, uf you look at the midi out of those devices it isn't very good. Problem is the time it takes to convert a bass note is quite long, but to get rid of the delay you need to make a 'best guess' of the note. The GR-5 does this by picking a pitch and then as it stabilises what that pitch is it whacks the pitch bend to get it to the right note - it is very very messy. There is also quite a lag on the midi out compared to the internal synths which don't have to deal with midi.

Also midi itself is fairly slow compared to the internal sound.. So by the time you have worked out what you think the pitch is, you start the internal synth, then  you have to send out a note on, which is a channel number, note on message with pitch, note on velocity, which is 3 * 10 bits at 31250bps, or just less than a millisecond. Or if you hit 5 string at the same time, 5ms.  ok for pads, less use for leads. And this is at the same time as doing everything else.

So i agree, it would be good to have, but maybe this pedal is already fantastic value and maybe we hope for the next one for that

 

You make a selection of fair points, not least that we should perhaps try not to immediately start moaning about what's not provided in some new bit of gear! 

However, I certainly wouldn't be too disheartened by a potential 5ms delay. Since sound travels at roughly 1 foot per millisecond, a 5ms delay is equivalent to playing whilst standing 5 feet from your amp, and I don't think too many of us find that unbearable...?!

[Stub Mandrel]

How long does it take to detect pitch?

At 120 beats per minute a quarter note lasts 500ms, a sixteenth note 125ms or just five wave-cycles.

The minimum must be two zero crossings - half a cycle. For E1 that's ~1/80 of a second, or 12.5ms. In practice two in the same direction is more reliable (most real world waveforms are somewhat asymmetric), so 25ms. If you guess after half a cycle then refine each half cycle after that the minimum delay is going to be 12.5 + a bit milliseconds.

For a low B you are looking at 16.7 and 33 milliseconds. Apparently the human ear can detect a delay of 40ms* so to avoid latency on low notes it looks like you ideally have to get it right in one wave-cycle.

 

*I did read along time ago that we are very sensitive to sounds arriving early (e.g. the bang before the flash jars) but accept slight delays (because we regularly experience these in real life whenever we see the distant source of a sound).

 

[Al Krow]

18 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

How long does it take to detect pitch?

At 120 beats per minute a quarter note lasts 500ms, a sixteenth note 125ms or just five wave-cycles.

The minimum must be two zero crossings - half a cycle. For E1 that's ~1/80 of a second, or 12.5ms. In practice two in the same direction is more reliable (most real world waveforms are somewhat asymmetric), so 25ms. If you guess after half a cycle then refine each half cycle after that the minimum delay is going to be 12.5 + a bit milliseconds.

For a low B you are looking at 16.7 and 33 milliseconds. Apparently the human ear can detect a delay of 40ms* so to avoid latency on low notes it looks like you ideally have to get it right in one wave-cycle.

 

*I did read along time ago that we are very sensitive to sounds arriving early (e.g. the bang before the flash jars) but accept slight delays (because we regularly experience these in real life whenever we see the distant source of a sound).

 

Remind me what it is that you're looking to achieve with all this midi and USB compatibility you're after? And is this something that can be relatively easily done via your Focusrite?

Fyi the SY-300 does already offer midi & USB port.  I understand it has the same synth engine as the SY-1. It will, however, set you back a tidy £507... I'm kinda happy to miss out on the midi and USB port, use my Focusrite 6i6 and pocket the £332 saving! 

[Stub Mandrel]

20 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Remind me what it is that you're looking to achieve with all this midi and USB compatibility you're after? And is this something that can be relatively easily done via your Focusrite?

Fyi the SY-300 does already offer midi & USB port.  I understand it has the same synth engine as the SY-1. It will, however, set you back a tidy £507... I'm kinda happy to miss out on the midi and USB port, use my Focusrite 6i6 and pocket the £332 saving! 

Mostly just 'wonderin' aloud'.

The Jamorigin software is £87 both both guitar and bass versions. It's polyphonic but needs a quality interface rather than working with the a soundcard but I have a focusrite Scarlett 2i I can use. It will let me use my Ignite and Abelton Lite plugins, including amp and effect modelling.

Sounds fun, but the SY1 is a lot less hardware...

[paulbuzz]

34 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Remind me what it is that you're looking to achieve with all this midi and USB compatibility you're after?

1) It would be an effective, low-cost way to be able to record midi information into a DAW from a guitar or bass, allowing later editing and selection of different sounds.

2) In a live context, you could use the sounds from any available midi synth module (Minimoog sounds from the Behringer clone, anyone?)

It just seems like, at Boss's end, the additional expense would be essentially the cost of a mini-usb socket.
However, I'm happy to admit that it seems a little churlish to respond to a fantastic new bit of gear by going "Waah, why can't I have this additional stuff as well?" 😋

[krispn]

2 minutes ago, paulbuzz said:

However, I'm happy to admit that it seems a little churlish to respond to a fantastic new bit of gear by going "Waah, why can't I have this additional stuff as well?" 😋

You'll not be the first or last

 

 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, paulbuzz said:

1) It would be an effective, low-cost way to be able to record midi information into a DAW from a guitar or bass, allowing later editing and selection of different sounds.

2) In a live context, you could use the sounds from any available midi synth module (Minimoog sounds from the Behringer clone, anyone?)

It just seems like, at Boss's end, the additional expense would be essentially the cost of a mini-usb socket.
However, I'm happy to admit that it seems a little churlish to respond to a fantastic new bit of gear by going "Waah, why can't I have this additional stuff as well?" 😋

Well it's by no means a daft idea! 

The single key limitation of the SY-1 is its lack of presets. With 500+ usable sounds it would be great to be able to easily capture them, but you would still need to remember which setting did what and adjust manually. Recording via midi doesn't really address the issue of lack of presets! 

But anyone who has a Focusrite (or similar) interface + DAW should already be able to do what you & SM are saying, right?

The Future Impact has midi connectivity (but no USB); the Source Audio C4 has USB (but not midi); the Boss SY-300 has both.

Edited September 16, 2019 by Al Krow

[Stub Mandrel]

6 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

But anyone who has a Focusrite (or similar) interface + DAW should already be able to do what you & SM are saying, right?

You need the conversion software like Midi Guitar 2 as well

[Quatschmacher]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Well it's by no means a daft idea! 

The single key limitation of the SY-1 is its lack of presets. With 500+ usable sounds it would be great to be able to easily capture them, but you would still need to remember which setting did what and adjust manually. Recording via midi doesn't really address the issue of lack of presets! 

But anyone who has a Focusrite (or similar) interface + DAW should already be able to do what you & SM are saying, right?

The Future Impact has midi connectivity (but no USB); the Source Audio C4 has USB (but not midi); the Boss SY-300 has both.

Source Audio has midi over USB. Or did you specifically mean 5-pin MIDI DIN sockets?

Edited September 16, 2019 by Quatschmacher

[paulbuzz]

The point is that it's being suggested that the SY-1 already contains pitch-to-synth conversion that's superior to pretty much anything else available (I believe the word 'flawless' was used, no?). If true, this is a non-trivial achievement and it would be great to be able to make use of this functionality to trigger other synths; a facility which could (possibly!) be included with virtually no additional production costs.

If midi output was available from the SY-1, you could use it to trigger any of the enormous number of available synths and modules that do have preset memory slots.

Adding memory presets to the SY-1, although technically simple, would require a more complicated user interface with more controls, and hence probably a larger case, and suddenly we're back at the SY-300. It's available, but costs a lot more!

Edited September 16, 2019 by paulbuzz

[Quatschmacher]

Just now, paulbuzz said:

The point is that it's being suggested that the SY-1 already contains pitch-to-synth conversion that's superior to pretty much anything else available (I believe the word 'flawless' was used, no?). This is a non-trivial achievement and it would be great to be able to make use of this functionality to trigger other synths; a facility which could (possibly!) be included with virtually no additional production costs.

If midi output was available from the SY-1, you could use it to trigger any of the enormous number of available synths and modules that do have preset memory slots.

Adding memory presets to the SY-1, although technically simple, would require a more complicated user interface with more controls, and hence probably a larger case, and suddenly we're back at the SY-300. It's available, but costs a lot more!

It’s a very different thing to turn input signals into oscillator outputs and another to generate MIDI data. I asked about this on the FI.

[paulbuzz]

2 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

It’s a very different thing to turn input signals into oscillator outputs and another to generate MIDI data. I asked about this on the FI.

Ok, well maybe! I'd be a bit surprised if this really added much additional complexity, although I admit I'm not qualified to insist either way with any authority! 😁

[paulbuzz]

Actually, looking up info about the SY-300, it appears that even though it's midi-equipped, it too doesn't transmit note on/off information!

So as Quatschmacher suggests, maybe this is a trickier thing to implement than we might think... 🤔

[Al Krow]

6 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

Actually, looking up info about the SY-300, it appears that even though it's midi-equipped, it too doesn't transmit note on/off information!

So as Quatschmacher suggests, maybe this is a trickier thing to implement than we might think... 🤔

So whilst it's obvious that the SY-1 can't do this as it doesn't have midi outputs, are we also saying that neither of the other current bass synth pedal 'leaders' i.e. the FI and C4 does this either?

Just curious - it's not like I'm ever going to use it: one of the big attractions of the SY-1 is that I can get great sounds out of the pedal without ever having to go near an app, midi or a PC! 

[Woodinblack]

10 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

2) In a live context, you could use the sounds from any available midi synth module (Minimoog sounds from the Behringer clone, anyone?)

No, not a minimoog, it would have to be polyphonic and also accept pitch bend per note (see the bit I mentioned about rolands pitch to midi). For this to work it would probably have to have MPE, and most hardware synths don't support this.

 

10 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

It just seems like, at Boss's end, the additional expense would be essentially the cost of a mini-usb socket.

No, the expense of that would be fractional compared to the extra processing requirement, which might need additional power requirement. Also not forget the additional development to do it.

6 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

The point is that it's being suggested that the SY-1 already contains pitch-to-synth conversion that's superior to pretty much anything else available (I believe the word 'flawless' was used, no?). If true, this is a non-trivial achievement and it would be great to be able to make use of this functionality to trigger other synths; a facility which could (possibly!) be included with virtually no additional production costs.

This we don't know. I suspect there would be additional production costs. Certainly a lot more development costs (that need to be factored in).

6 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

If midi output was available from the SY-1, you could use it to trigger any of the enormous number of available synths and modules that do have preset memory slots.

Actually, like I mentioned, it would be a very limited number of available synths. I have a recording somewhere from the GR-5 midi out. It is not very good at all, and only a few synths would handle it (like logic). The synths that are allready in the SY-1 are picked specifically for that task.

And that is assuming it actually has synths in and isn't just signal processing.

6 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

Adding memory presets to the SY-1, although technically simple, would require a more complicated user interface with more controls, and hence probably a larger case, and suddenly we're back at the SY-300. It's available, but costs a lot more!

Agreed.

6 hours ago, paulbuzz said:

Ok, well maybe! I'd be a bit surprised if this really added much additional complexity, although I admit I'm not qualified to insist either way with any authority! 😁

Most people are surprised at the complexity of doing things, because they haven't looked into things. I suspect if it was simple, which I know it isn't., it would already be being done.

[Woodinblack]

In fact, now I am back at work from holiday and I have my 'thinking about things' head on, I would say I reckon that at no point does the SY-1 actually do pitch to note conversion. It is just too fast and the difficulty of doing that and having polyphony I don't think would work in that box with its current power requirement. I think it just converts the input to a signal which it then modifies, and triggers on so more like the VG than the GR synths.

So basically replace the oscillators in a synth, and then use the existing signal with a bit of signal processing for the different sound types, and some dividing / multiplying for pitches (and I also think the switch on the back just full wave rectifies the input) and take that and feed it to the filters and envelopes like a normal subtractive synth.