Boss SY-1

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

In fact, now I am back at work from holiday and I have my 'thinking about things' head on, I would say I reckon that at no point does the SY-1 actually do pitch to note conversion. It is just too fast and the difficulty of doing that and having polyphony I don't think would work in that box with its current power requirement. I think it just converts the input to a signal which it then modifies, and triggers on so more like the VG than the GR synths.

So basically replace the oscillators in a synth, and then use the existing signal with a bit of signal processing for the different sound types, and some dividing / multiplying for pitches (and I also think the switch on the back just full wave rectifies the input) and take that and feed it to the filters and envelopes like a normal subtractive synth.

I'd be very surprised if Boss don't do all this in the digital domain.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I'd be very surprised if Boss don't do all this in the digital domain.

Oh yes, almost certainly digital, but no pitch to note conversion involved

[Quatschmacher]

On 14/09/2019 at 15:56, Al Krow said:

How does it do on a 4 string down to the open E and played at speed - any glitching at all?

Haven’t done a speed clip, but FI tracks all day long at low E:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WQAQQIQ3zhb3S4hxCJlq8BYt1opXWKhp/view?usp=drivesdk

[fretmeister]

I only ordered my SY-1 a few days ago - fully in the knowledge that the next UK shipment is not due util the end of October...

 

And I'm already bloody annoyed it isn't here yet!

I've got rehearsal on saturday and I want to annoy them!   

[Al Krow]

On 14/09/2019 at 21:39, Quatschmacher said:

Why would polyphonic necessarily give better tracking? If anything i would think it would take more processing time to decipher multiple pitches.

I would like to try the SY-1 if I can find one anywhere. 

I think we've managed to clarify between us why polyphonic capability can result in better tracking. In summary, as we discussed:

It seems the best tracking results on the FI are achieved when using a staccato / muting playing technique for the more rapid notes you might find in a typical bass line e.g. when playing octaves, by making sure your thumb mutes the lower string at the instant (or just before) you pluck the higher one.

A polyphonic pedal will certainly be more flexible in accommodating different playing techniques. 

For me, not having to modify my playing technique to get the best out of a pedal is a significant plus point - I like that the pedal is working with and for me and not the other way around. 

So it's definitely looking like the SY-1 is hitting the mark, beautifully, for what I need it to be doing: a quality synth pedal that is both very straightforward and a pleasure to use; small footprint with great tracking and a varied soundscape. 

[GisserD]

....So do you like the Boss SY1 then Bas? 

[Al Krow]

8 minutes ago, GisserD said:

....So do you like the Boss SY1 then Bas? 

I'm still on the fence, mate. 

 

 

 

😀

[Al Krow]

On the understanding that the SY-1 is a cut down version of the SY-300, the following extract from a Sound on Sound 2015 review of the SY-300 is quite informative on what's going on under the bonnet and how Boss have managed to eliminate latency on the tracking.

"The engineers at Roland/Boss are understandably a little secretive about what’s going on inside the SY‑300 but, given the way other devices work and some knowledge of recent advances in polyphonic real–time pitch extraction, I have a good idea of the essentials.

As you’d expect, some form of polyphonic pitch–extraction is used to control the sound processing but, unlike with most such systems, there’s no latency between plucking/strumming the strings and hearing the sound. This is because the sound you hear actually starts life not as a sample, but as the waveform that comes directly from your guitar’s pickup, just as with any conventional effect. You might not recognise it as such because its harmonic makeup is augmented and re–arranged to produce the familiar square, pulse, triangle, sine, sawtooth, and noise waves used in basic analogue synthesis, but that’s what it is — the processed sound from your guitar. This approach overcomes the problem of latency, of course, but it also means what you hear is directly affected by the way you play or the guitar’s pickup; the SY‑300 restores that organic connection between player and instrument that previous guitar synths sacrificed.

Some form of digital pitch–shifting is then used to detune or retune the individual oscillators by up to 24 semitones (in either direction), and synth–style envelopes, filters and modulations can be applied."

[Woodinblack]

21 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

This is because the sound you hear actually starts life not as a sample, but as the waveform that comes directly from your guitar’s pickup, just as with any conventional effect.

Or as I said

On 17/09/2019 at 08:23, Woodinblack said:

I would say I reckon that at no point does the SY-1 actually do pitch to note conversion. It is just too fast and the difficulty of doing that and having polyphony I don't think would work in that box with its current power requirement. I think it just converts the input to a signal which it then modifies, and triggers on so more like the VG than the GR synths.

which I think is the same thing.

If it does anything to replace that waveform it is a phase locked loop (but even that would fall over polyphonically), so yes, this is a continuation of the VG technology, where the GR-10 & 55 are a continuation of the note detection technology.

Which means the reason that the SY boxes don't give out midi data is that at no point has the SY worked out the pitch.

And why if you actually want midi input you are still going to need the GR-55 or the like and the hexaphonic pickup (or in my case, I guess a pentaphonic pickup!).

Having never used the SY300 I am wondering if it is exactly the same, or if it has moved on a bit in the following 4 years?

[Stub Mandrel]

10 hours ago, Al Krow said:

On the understanding that the SY-1 is a cut down version of the SY-300, the following extract from a Sound on Sound 2015 review of the SY-300 is quite informative on what's going on under the bonnet and how Boss have managed to eliminate latency on the tracking.

"The engineers at Roland/Boss are understandably a little secretive about what’s going on inside the SY‑300 but, given the way other devices work and some knowledge of recent advances in polyphonic real–time pitch extraction, I have a good idea of the essentials.

As you’d expect, some form of polyphonic pitch–extraction is used to control the sound processing but, unlike with most such systems, there’s no latency between plucking/strumming the strings and hearing the sound. This is because the sound you hear actually starts life not as a sample, but as the waveform that comes directly from your guitar’s pickup, just as with any conventional effect. You might not recognise it as such because its harmonic makeup is augmented and re–arranged to produce the familiar square, pulse, triangle, sine, sawtooth, and noise waves used in basic analogue synthesis, but that’s what it is — the processed sound from your guitar. This approach overcomes the problem of latency, of course, but it also means what you hear is directly affected by the way you play or the guitar’s pickup; the SY‑300 restores that organic connection between player and instrument that previous guitar synths sacrificed.

Some form of digital pitch–shifting is then used to detune or retune the individual oscillators by up to 24 semitones (in either direction), and synth–style envelopes, filters and modulations can be applied."

So a bit of both!

Back in the 80s I made a maplin module (with pre and post compression as recommended) that did pitch shifting simply by sampling the   waveform and spewing it out at a different speed. They sold it making it very clear it was a 'toy' effect - the chopping could be very obvious and it sounded clanky. But i was more into f***d up noises than musical fidelity back then.  I still have it somewhere it would be fun to get it going again.

[Al Krow]

10 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

Having never used the SY300 I am wondering if it is exactly the same, or if it has moved on a bit in the following 4 years?

My guess is that it would be the SY-300 tech under the bonnet. Given that the SY-1 is one third the price of the SY-300, commercially it would be hard to justify the SY-1 being more advanced, and being able to 'cannibalise' existing tech both allows them to provide the SY-1 at a much lower price point. 

But it seems to me that the buzz around the SY-1 is rubbing off on other Boss products including making us have another look at the SY-300, which a lot of folk had I suspect dismissed. This is my first Boss pedal in many years since acquiring the PS-6 harmonist (great in principle, let down by latency) and the excellent Boss RC-30, which I will look to replace with a more compact looper. I suspect it won't be my last! 

[Woodinblack]

I was seriously considering the sy300 before the sy1 came along, the thing holding me back was the size

[fretmeister]

The thread has got very

 

 

 

Very quickly!

 

 

[Al Krow]

34 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

The thread has got very

 

 

 

Very quickly!

 

 

If you feel that, then you need to defo steer well clear of any C4 or FI discussion threads, as you will need proper brain power for both of those 😂

[Al Krow]

...in the meantime, to get you re-engaged and not feeling too left out would it be helpful to state that, unlike harsh comments from others about your recent MB amp acquisition, this bit of kit is clearly pretty? 😄 😁

[fretmeister]

They just haven't got style!

[Stub Mandrel]

6 hours ago, Al Krow said:

My guess is that it would be the SY-300 tech under the bonnet. Given that the SY-1 is one third the price of the SY-300, commercially it would be hard to justify the SY-1 being more advanced, and being able to 'cannibalise' existing tech both allows them to provide the SY-1 at a much lower price point. 

But it seems to me that the buzz around the SY-1 is rubbing off on other Boss products including making us have another look at the SY-300, which a lot of folk had I suspect dismissed. This is my first Boss pedal in many years since acquiring the PS-6 harmonist (great in principle, let down by latency) and the excellent Boss RC-30, which I will look to replace with a more compact looper. I suspect it won't be my last! 

He's not on commission from Boss, honest 🙂

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

He's not on commission from Boss, honest 🙂

Haha. Wish I was! 

[Quatschmacher]

Slightly off topic but here’s a polyphonic sound achieved by my lowly monophonic Future Impact. I’m pretty sure the SY-1 can’t do this as the finger stretches alone would make it impossible.   

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNq_3POlLpeRq6dFjoY8boVaQ1no3hHy/view?usp=drivesdk

https://drive.google.com/file/d/16zIK035UiU-aBZGjUKVVW5_XzvW5pB7g/view?usp=drivesdk

Edited September 21, 2019 by Quatschmacher

[Woodinblack]

1 minute ago, Quatschmacher said:

Slightly off topic but here’s my polyphonic sound achieved by my lowly monophonic Future Impact. 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gNq_3POlLpeRq6dFjoY8boVaQ1no3hHy/view?usp=drivesdk

Interesting - if it is monophonic, how do you get to pick which chord you are playing?

[Quatschmacher]

15 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Interesting - if it is monophonic, how do you get to pick which chord you are playing?

I’ve programmed clever pitch offsets to the oscillators, controlled by expression pedal. 

See here:

 

Here’s another example which uses the expression to switch between m7b5, m9, 9, and maj9 voicings:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RZ1sySW33BoJn4nCSrHj8940yv_mw81E/view?usp=drivesdk

Edited September 21, 2019 by Quatschmacher

[Quatschmacher]

14 minutes ago, Quatschmacher said:

I’ve programmed clever pitch offsets to the oscillators, controlled by expression pedal. 

Did someone just troll me? A few moments ago my link pointed to the Homer Simpson “Nerd!” scene!

Kudos to the person who managed to do that! 

Edited September 21, 2019 by Quatschmacher

[Al Krow]

Send / return loop

"With the send/return loop and dedicated mix controls, it’s also possible to blend one or more pedals in parallel with the SY-1’s synth voices. For example, you can patch drive pedals in the loop, and then send the combined output to mod, delay, and reverb pedals for overall processing. The send can be used as a direct out as well, enabling you to route synth and guitar sounds to separate destinations."

@Woodinblack @fretmeister - you guys given any thought to using the parallel loop capability on yours? Going to be a choice of either a drive pedal or a bitcrusher for me.

@Quatschmacher does the two input / two output set up on the SA pedals (e.g. the C4 / Aftershock) provide a similar parallel loop. My understanding is that it works slightly differently by letting you route two inputs to two outputs as a 'flow-through' rather than as a loop - be interested to know what you use you've been making / could think of of putting this to?

[Quatschmacher]

22 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

@Quatschmacher does the two input / two output set up on the SA pedals (e.g. the C4 / Aftershock) provide a similar parallel loop. My understanding is that it works slightly differently by letting you route two inputs to two outputs as a 'flow-through' rather than as a loop - be interested to know what you use you've been making / could think of of putting this to?

It’s very flexible, you can use it as a loop or as dual input or a whole bunch of other stuff. The only thing I’ve used it for is for processing external effects with the filter while using dry signal to trigger the envelopes.  

[fretmeister]

Mine won't arrive until end of October!