Pedal for 60s warm tubey Motown sound

[Al Krow]

Great post thanks @krispn!

Picking up on some of your points:

My pedal board is still 'bedroom warrior' stuff and will be for a while. Just the little Zoom B1X-4 taken on the road so far. And yup all the drives on that Zoom multi lose low-end, even with a boosted bass EQ patch added to the effect. As has been commented on by dB the DG pedals do also lose low end and that features on the VMT and B3K effects built into the DG M900.

You can clean blend to compensate; but the ability of the relatively few pedals such as the Grizzly Bass to give you a driven low end without the need for clean blend is, for me, preferable, as the whole of your bass signal (including the low end) benefits from the dirt tone and I suspect is less likely to get lost  in the mix than I find with the M900 / B1X-4 dirt, rather than be overpowering which was your concern.

Am starting to make progress with the Stomp, though, and will maybe pull together a little mini board with that and a couple of other pedals, later in the year. I'll have to admit that the Stomp has recently demonstrated that it is in a league above the Zoom on a couple of patches (e.g. pitch shifting) and the HX Edit is making much lighter work of creating and editing patches than I had feared might be the case. 

Yup my points on the TH were picked up straight from the Andertons' sales page, so thanks for correcting!

On tone shaping do you think the Aggie will bring something to the party that the Stomp won't? Or alternatively a Tech 21 Q\Strip (which I've recently acquired in a trade from Mr Bass5).

In terms of the hint of tube growl on my BB1025 - it's not by any means a full-on tube growl which I hope was clear from my earlier post.  The BB1025 P pup should be pretty similar to your BB 734A; it's not as 'flat' as the BB425 or I suspect a Fender P (@dannybuoy will be able to confirm as he has both) but has some complex harmonic overtones / richness, which I really like, even through a clean amp such as the DG M900. It's a similar harmonic richness to what I hear from my Mesa M6 with other basses and I put this down to the M6 preamp which features a 12Ax7 tube. I know you and I often use terms like 'punch', 'growl' and 'throaty' a little differently but I hope that clarifies what I was trying to get across.

Edited July 13, 2019 by Al Krow

[dave_bass5]

Good post Krispn, makes a lot of sense. I do in fact have my Mojomoj to be slightly louder when its on, as i find with mild dirt things can get a bit lost, so i wasnt too worried about the TH having a boost, but it just seemed to make me suddenly jump out of the mix, and didnt seem easily controllable. 

When i had my Q/strip I found that careful use of the upper mids could actually  get me more dirt, without even using a OD/Drive. This sounded more natural to me, but of course thats not a Motown tone. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by dave_bass5

[krispn]

31 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

You can clean blend to compensate; but the ability of the relatively few pedals such as the Grizzly Bass to give you a driven low end without the need for clean blend is, for me, preferable, as the whole of your bass signal (including the low end) benefits from the dirt tone and I suspect is less likely to get lost  in the mix than I find with the M900 / B1X-4 dirt, rather than be overpowering which was your concern.

A lot of folks on this forum (and in the studio) may argue that a clean low end on a bass tone helps to retain some clarity especially live where many folks identify unruly low end to be a bit of a bane! You should get the grizzly out on a gig and hear what it's doing and report back. I really like the Ed F video where he gets that Motown sound but with the G&L bass it all gets a bit too much the more gain he adds but I understand the G&L pick up's are hot hot hot! I've not used the Grizzly live so I'm purely speculating as to what it would do but driven low end has it's place and while pleasing to the ear messing about at home is a world away from balancing a live mix. Get it out for a gig and report back! That's the stuff we all wanna hear about not quoting the sales pitch, spec sheet and what the tech is doing. Real world experience is where it's at and I've no doubt it will sound great when set up just so

 

 

So does the HX Edit nudge ahead of the Zoom editor now you've had a chance to properly compare the two?

 

41 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

On tone shaping do you think the Aggie will bring something to the party that the Stomp won't? Or alternatively a Tech 21 Q\Strip (which I've recently managed to acquired in a trade from Mr Bass5).

As ever it depends what you want to achieve from these three units. Both the TH and the QS are kinda redundant if you have the Stomp as are most pedals - if you figure out how to program the Stomp to suit your gigging needs there's only one or two 'other' pedal's you might 'need' depending on the gig - presuming you want to gig the Stomp/pedals that is. If you were just using a TH or QS on a gig for tone shaping/DI purposes as a stand alone then yeah they're good pedals to have on hand but again the Stomp can do pretty much all that. From my perspective...

The TH can do clean eq as well as 'amp type sounds', a bit of that BDDI/Ampeg type thing but the Stomp is getting a BDDI patch in the next update, it already has the SVT and a B-15 amp models so that might leave it redundant for you as you have Stomp.

The Q Strip can do lots of eq options and a bit of 'speaker sim' too. The Stomp already has a far greater range of speaker sim options with far greater control over the parameters than the Q Strip can muster. To be fair the QStrip isn't designed to compete with the Stomp. Include the Stomp's ability to add more 3rd party IR and IMO that rules the Q Strip redundant on a pedal board which already features a Stomp (masses of EQ options between the amp sims and the eq options- You could set the Stomp to recreate the QS eq points or any pre amp for that matter). The QS or TH could always be used in an fx loop on the Stomp if it was bringing a unique sound but I feel it won't add anything over and above what the Stomp is doing in practical terms but we all have different preferences/needs etc.

 

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

In terms of the hint of tube growl on my BB1025 - it's not by any means a full-on tube growl which I hope was clear from my earlier post.  The BB1025 P pup should be pretty similar to your BB 734A; it's not as 'flat' as the BB425 or I suspect a Fender P (@dannybuoy will be able to confirm as he has both) but has some complex harmonic overtones / richness, which I really like, even through a clean amp such as the DG M900. It's a similar harmonic richness to what I hear from my Mesa M6 with other basses and I put this down to the M6 preamp which features a 12Ax7 tube. I know you and I often use terms like 'punch', 'growl' and 'throaty' a little differently but I hope that clarifies what I was trying to get across. 

I was a bit confused by the tube growl thing and was led to believe by many on the Yamaha mega thread that the BB10XX had quite a 'big' sounding P pick up with lots of bottom that was anything but 'traditional Fender' P and that is a real selling point for many. I was also under the impression that the new BB series were not as full on and possibly more subtle in their voicing that the older BB's but again I'm not in a position to say with any authority. I'm guessing the pre amp is doing something but if you can fire off some audio that would help me get my head around it better...maybe!

 

Anyway there are some many adjectives used to describe sounds and tones, all these things, that it all becomes a bit subjective as are my opinions above.

[krispn]

1 hour ago, dave_bass5 said:

Good post Krispn, makes a lot of sense. I do in fact have my Mojomoj to be slightly louder when its on, as i find with mild dirt things can get a bit lost, so i wasnt too worried about the TH having a boost, but it just seemed to make me suddenly jump out of the mix, and didnt seem easily controllable. 

When i had my Q/strip I found that careful use of the upper mids could actually  get me more dirt, without even using a OD/Drive. This sounded more natural to me, but of course thats not a Motown tone. 

I think the boost from the AGS mode especially with the gain turned up past 0900 was possibly more than most folks could find usable but if the AGS mode was used as the go to sound ratehr than going between AGS off and AGS on then it's easier to balance against the pedal off volume. I basically use the TH in two ways.

I have the basic tone I like set up with the AGS engaged and would leave that on for the whole gig as my basic sound or I have a clean setting on the amp and compliment it with a bit of eq. I was gigging the other weekend through a house amp and was able to switch the amp eq off (it was an Ashdown combo) and rely on the TH for all my eq. Worked well for me.

[Al Krow]

18 minutes ago, krispn said:

A lot of folks on this forum (and in the studio) may argue that a clean low end on a bass tone helps to retain some clarity especially live where many folks identify unruly low end to be a bit of a bane! You should get the grizzly out on a gig and hear what it's doing and report back. I really like the Ed F video where he gets that Motown sound but with the G&L bass it all gets a bit too much the more gain he adds but I understand the G&L pick up's are hot hot hot! I've not used the Grizzly live so I'm purely speculating as to what it would do but driven low end has it's place and while pleasing to the ear messing about at home is a world away from balancing a live mix. Get it out for a gig and report back! That's the stuff we all wanna hear about not quoting the sales pitch, spec sheet and what the tech is doing. Real world experience is where it's at and I've no doubt it will sound great when set up just so 

Better still, don't take my word for it: I should just put the Grizzly in the post to you and let you try out and you'll be able to hear it for yourself! [Please note, this isn't a general offer to the whole of BC land, as I'm gonna need the pedal myself...but young master krispn has been kind enough to loan me pedals in the past, and even paid for the postage - so I owe him!]

"So does the HX Edit nudge ahead of the Zoom editor now you've had a chance to properly compare the two?"

I don't use Zoom's own editor but a rather nifty PC Editor by Tonelib which is provided free by its creator online. Still getting up to speed on the HX Editor and the Stomp has a quite a lot more functionality - but it looks like it can do the job pretty well. So happy to use either.

"IMO that rules the Q Strip redundant on a pedal board which already features a Stomp"

Yup that's kinda where I am landing too and @dave_bass5, who I got the pedal from, made a very similar comment to me earlier today. He, however, doesn't have a Stomp and has been missing his old Q\Strip...or, more likely, I suspect my Q\Strip may well find its way into the FS in the not too distant future.

"I was also under the impression that the new BB series were not as full on and possibly more subtle in their voicing that the older BB's"

It's a pretty nuanced difference. I don't think you would hear a great deal of difference between my BB1025 and BBP35 in a blind test.  

Edited July 13, 2019 by Al Krow

[krispn]

I can't take your word for it as you've not gigged it yet I'd be happy to give it it's live debut if you fancy sending it up but it'd likely be quicker to take it to your next gig! I am out twice next weekend though and I'm always up for trying new kit

[Al Krow]

26 minutes ago, krispn said:

I can't take your word for it as you've not gigged it yet I'd be happy to give it it's live debut if you fancy sending it up...

Done! And, even better, it will get an independent, unbiased, 'warts and all' review from a guy who knows his gear! They're easily the best, most useful, reviews in my experience. That's gotta be worth the cost of postage! 😀

PS - given that dirt is inherently compressed not sure what the 'unruly' low end would be that you mentioned coming from a drive pedal? And, if necessary, any unruly low end I presume should be fairly easily tackled by setting an hpf appropriately, to cut at either 30 / 40 Hz or from the first harmonic at 60 / 80 Hz, depending on whether you're using a 4 or 5 string? So maybe take your Broughton on the road with you when you're taking the Grizzly for a spin  

Edited July 13, 2019 by Al Krow

[krispn]

I hadn't thought about the hpf good thinking cheers

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

PS - given that dirt is inherently compressed not sure what the 'unruly' low end would be that you mentioned coming from a drive pedal? And, if necessary, any unruly low end I presume should be fairly easily tackled by setting an hpf appropriately, to cut at either 30 / 40 Hz or from the first harmonic at 60 / 80 Hz, depending on whether you're using a 4 or 5 string? So maybe take your Broughton on the road with you when you're taking the Grizzly for a spin  

Many recording, live and studio guys value a cleaner bottom end to retain the bass and focus the drive on mid and higher frequencies to give a good balance of clean, clear low end and a bit of cut up top cut - aclean DI and a mic's cab for instance. The Grizzly might well sound massive in the lows if they're 'driven' but this isn't always desirable. It's true drive pedals do 'compress' and depending on the application it maybe better to have a cleaner low end but as ever depends on the application soound one is aiming for.

i'm confident you have enough of a concept and opinion on compression now to know what it does and doesn't do and how much a drive pedal is actually compressing versus an actual compressor. You've been through quite a few of both

 

 

Edited July 13, 2019 by krispn

[Cuzzie]

Plus driven bass sounds on records are often double tracked, clean and a dirty

[dave_bass5]

I must say ive been amazed at how well dirt works for helping sound clean but punchy in the mix. 

[dannybuoy]

For rock/metal, I want dirt focused on the upper midrange blended with clean lows. The dirt is really there to accentuate string growl when digging in. That's where the DP3X shines!

Forclassic rock, blues, Motown, etc, I want the lows distorted, with zero blending. When I dig in here with ancient flatwounds, there's no appreciable string growl, but there is an increase in volume and low end, and I want a fart sound on the peak of the note.

Two very different sounds! I could get Helix Native to cover the first case nicely, but didn't have as much luck copping my Tonehammer or Mojomojo with it. As for the Grizzly, I found that to just give me harsh clipping rather then a pleasing squelch when digging in, it just didn't give me the response I was looking for.

 

[krispn]

I’m not so keen o the farty sound. If you can smell the tone it’s gone too far!

[Al Krow]

@dannybuoy if you refer to the Ed Friedland YT of the Grizzly, which chimes pretty closely with how I find it works, what time reference / pedal settings in that video were you finding it not delivering what you were looking for?

Must admit I use the Grizzly as a full bodied dirt rather than for tone shaping as I have plenty of other options for that. 

[krispn]

@dannybuoy

you could always patch the TH in via the fx loop on the Stomp and have it available if the gig required both types of sounds. 

[Al Krow]

38 minutes ago, krispn said:

@dannybuoy

you could always patch the TH in via the fx loop on the Stomp and have it available if the gig required both types of sounds. 

I don't think dB has a Stomp pedal, just the Native software.

[krispn]

Ahh cool!

[Clarky]

OK troops I have found the one. Anyone got a spare $1800 plus post and import duty they could chuck my way?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MTP66--acme-audio-mtp-66-motown-tube-preamp

[Cuzzie]

It’s on sale!!!!

I’ve found at least 10p down the sofa to contribute

[Clarky]

7 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

It’s on sale!!!!

I’ve found at least 10p down the sofa to contribute

I calculate that if approximately 19,998 more BCers chip in similarly, we are in business

[Cuzzie]

Does that mean we all get it for approximately 1/20000 of a year each in a shared economy, or is this cha-cha-chariteeee

Edited July 14, 2019 by Cuzzie

[krispn]

Crowdfund gas?

[Reggaebass]

17 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

Does that mean we all get it for approximately 1/20000 of a year each

If we have it for a week each , the last person has to wait a long time 😂

[stewblack]

Funnily enough I've just bought a Joyo/HB/Ammoon American Sound pedal to achieve a similar result as that the OP is after. I'll let you all know.

As to tube/distortion helping clarify the sound - yes absolutely in my limited experience it does. I wound up the Grind setting on my ABM (basically controls the valve in the pre amp) at the weekend in desperation having tried everything else (playing to a field, no PA support with a flappy cab - more about this elsewhere!) my sound was not great and certainly not cutting through. I was stunned what a difference it made. Compressed the sound somewhat, and cut like a hot knife through melted butter. Didn't sound particularly distorted either, strangely enough,

[project_c]

15 hours ago, Clarky said:

OK troops I have found the one. Anyone got a spare $1800 plus post and import duty they could chuck my way?

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/MTP66--acme-audio-mtp-66-motown-tube-preamp

I have their Motown DI, it’s great. It’s not the definitive Motown tone people search for, but it’s a step towards it. Way too expensive though.

For what it’s worth I don’t think Motown bass tone is that difficult to work out. Booze, P-bass, rosewood board, dead flats, high action, tone down a bit, pluck in front of the pickup, straight in to a D.I., then a bit of tape saturation, or if you want it to be a bit more legit, actually record to old tape, then you’ll get all the dusty artefacts too. There’s not much more to it than that. The breakup you hear is the signal clipping, it goes way past the threshold on the lower notes in some places.

The transformers, tubes etc that people obsess over when trying to recreate that sound have far less to do with the fundamental character of that tone than we think, and they will only really make a difference to engineers listening on super high end monitors. They’re just the cherry on top. You can get to 99% of the Motown  tone even with a fairly basic setup. Don’t forget the booze though.

[mcnach]

Talking about warm tubey sounds... if you want it relatively low gain, the TC Electronic Spark Booster would not be the worst pedal you could get, and at £40 it's worth a look.

I've just got one and I'm liking it a lot so far, but certain basses sound a lot better than others. I'm sure it's a matter of adjusting things differently, but there it is. Oh, and don't use batteries. It sounds better plugged in.