I Hate Gigging!

[TimR]

A lot of the reason is becase everything is snapped to a grid and uses prerecorded samples. It's dehumanised. 

 

Writing material using garageband 'forces' you to use a cut and paste 'cookie cutter' approach and anyone can produce 'music' in their bedroom. All they're doing is create a collage from other people's work. 

[BigRedX]

32 minutes ago, TimR said:

A lot of the reason is becase everything is snapped to a grid and uses prerecorded samples. It's dehumanised. 

 

Writing material using garageband 'forces' you to use a cut and paste 'cookie cutter' approach and anyone can produce 'music' in their bedroom. All they're doing is create a collage from other people's work. 

 

No it doesn't. 

 

Maybe if you are stupid and lazy, but for everyone else it opens up an endless set of possibilities limited only by your imagination.

[TimR]

17 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

 

No it doesn't. 

 

Maybe if you are stupid and lazy, but for everyone else it opens up an endless set of possibilities limited only by your imagination.

 

Is that the advertising blurb?

 

There's a reason I put 'forces' in inverted commas. 

[ubit]

I will guess that everyone of us on here knows the formula for writing a song. Anyone can write a song. Its writing a good song that's hard. otherwise everyone would have hits on their hands. There is no shortage of decent original songs out there but ones that people will buy in quantity?

[TimR]

1 minute ago, ubit said:

I will guess that everyone of us on here knows the formula for writing a song. Anyone can write a song. Its writing a good song that's hard. otherwise everyone would have hits on their hands. There is no shortage of decent original songs out there but ones that people will buy in quantity?

 

In my experience of playing in original bands, a lot of songwriters can get bogged down in tinkering with a song and try to polish it too much and try to make them too complicated. This means a lot of time (and emotion) is invested in their creation. 

 

A lot of the successful bands seem to have jammed something and created a song very quickly. If you do this and write lots of songs you can afford to bin the ones that don't really work. 

 

I found that a source of frustration when gigging originals, the song writer would still be making last minute changes to a song just before a gig.

 

And as I wrote before, a guitarist turning up with a load of licks and determined to jam them all into one song, doesn't work either.

 

I'm not convinced writing good songs is hard, more that peole make hard work of writing simple songs. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ubit]

9 minutes ago, TimR said:

I'm not convinced writing good songs is hard, more that peole make hard work of writing simple songs. 

 

 

I look forward to hearing some examples of your good songs.

[peteb]

42 minutes ago, TimR said:

A lot of the reason is becase everything is snapped to a grid and uses prerecorded samples. It's dehumanised. 

 

Writing material using garageband 'forces' you to use a cut and paste 'cookie cutter' approach and anyone can produce 'music' in their bedroom. All they're doing is create a collage from other people's work. 

 

Well it does if you are not a good enough songwriter. 

 

However, the fact that you can do that, along with the formulaic nature of modern pop music that has conditioned the 'consumer' to expect the hook within seconds of the song starting has led to the 'dehumanised' quality of a lot of new pop music and probably the reason why quite a lot of kids are turning to the music of their parents and grandparents. 

 

[TimR]

10 minutes ago, peteb said:

formulaic nature of modern pop music

 

Everything written since 1950 is the same formula. It's based on Jazz which has set out forms.

 

There's a reason, it's because repetition breeds familiarity. Get in with the hook and repeat it. 

[BigRedX]

42 minutes ago, ubit said:

I will guess that everyone of us on here knows the formula for writing a song. Anyone can write a song. Its writing a good song that's hard. otherwise everyone would have hits on their hands. There is no shortage of decent original songs out there but ones that people will buy in quantity?

 

There is no formula for writing a "good" song. And most of the time people mistake "good" with "popular", not that there is anything wrong with being "popular" and anyway "good" is entirely subjective.

 

And remember that every song you play in your covers band is an original song for the band/artist that wrote it.

 

[peteb]

2 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

Everything written since 1950 is the same formula. It's based on Jazz which has set out forms.

 

There's a reason, it's because repetition breeds familiarity. Get in with the hook and repeat it. 

 

But songwriters were always prepared to break that formula occasionally in the past and audiences were prepared to let them do so. 

 

These days a song will not get on the radio / Spotify playlist if it does not exactly adhere to the formula (format, chord progression, number of syllables on each line of the verse, etc - there's been a couple of Rick Beato YT clips giving examples an explanation and examples of this). 

 

 

[TimR]

19 minutes ago, ubit said:

 

 

I look forward to hearing some examples of your good songs.

 

Unfortunately my creative juices left with my teenage angst and rebellion. 

 

I may write something but think you need something to write about. 

[TimR]

2 minutes ago, peteb said:

 

But songwriters were always prepared to break that formula occasionally in the past and audiences were prepared to let them do so. 

 

These days a song will not get on the radio / Spotify playlist if it does not exactly adhere to the formula (format, chord progression, number of syllables on each line of the verse, etc - there's been a couple of Rick Beato YT clips giving examples an explanation and examples of this). 

 

 

 

Rick is very good. I agree with the snap to grid problem but not every song follows the same progression. There's examples where he sits through the Spotify list with his guitar and despite what he's said before then disproves his assertion. But there are very few chord progressions that actually work. Most are 3/4 chords with any 5th or 6th ones being incidental. 

 

You're essentially locked to the chords as soon as you pick a key, you can't just pick a few at random. C major means you have to play a Dm,Em,F,G,Am,B. (Not being to be condescending there).

 

Unless you're playing Prog Rock, pop songs are pretty much all going to have been done before. 

[ubit]

27 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

There is no formula for writing a "good" song.

 

 

I realise that is a generalisation but most people think verse, chorus, verse, chorus bridge/solo, chorus, chorus is the classic way to write a song.

[peteb]

11 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

Rick is very good. I agree with the snap to grid problem but not every song follows the same progression. There's examples where he sits through the Spotify list with his guitar and despite what he's said before then disproves his assertion. But there are very few chord progressions that actually work. Most are 3/4 chords with any 5th or 6th ones being incidental. 

 

You're essentially locked to the chords as soon as you pick a key, you can't just pick a few at random. C major means you have to play a Dm,Em,F,G,Am,B. (Not being to be condescending there).

 

Unless you're playing Prog Rock, pop songs are pretty much all going to have been done before. 

 

Yes and no, there is music theory to support pretty much any changes but of course, certain chord progressions are going to naturally re-occur as they sound easier to the ear (just as a change to the sub-dominant is the main thing that defines a song as having a 'bluesy' quality). 

 

However, if you listen to top producers who dominate a lot of chart music, Max Martin and the like, they nearly always use I-V-IV-VI or I-IV-VI-V progressions and will have an equal number of number of syllables on each line of the verse. I can't remember the 'hit factories' of the past, Motown etc, being anything like as rigid in their approach.

 

Of course, there has always been a disposable element to pop music but there is a reason why modern chart stuff sounds so bland and instantly forgettable. 

 

[BigRedX]

3 minutes ago, ubit said:

I realise that is a generalisation but most people think verse, chorus, verse, chorus bridge/solo, chorus, chorus is the classic way to write a song.

 

What makes a song successful is that it is memorable and that it stands out from the "competition". Sticking to the formula can make that much harder.

 

Making a song memorable means having something that people can latch on to. A song with different structure can be a very effective way of doing this.

 

However IME you don't "force" it, because it always ends up sounding contrived. A successful unconventional structure is one that just happens during the song writing process.

[TimR]

But as far as the OP and gigging is concerned, memorable songs aren't your bread and butter. 

 

Funding 30 individual high quality memorable tunes that some people may or may not like, or won't bore your bass player, or are in the singer's key and range etc is further limiting your choice of songs. Especially when you want to keep your setlist fresh. 

 

Simple 4 chord wonders that people recognise and can dance to makes a big difference.

 

 

[Dad3353]

I, and several others, have been writing new, original material on a monthly basis for several years now. These works have been readily and freely available to any and all BC members (and, indeed, passing non-members, too...) in our Composition Challenge topic. Each month a 'winner' is decided by vox populis (a vote from anyone who cares to...), and a theme for the next month's challenge is published, and we start again. Some (no, 'many', if not 'most'...) of the works are excellent (OK, a few duds here and there; I apoligise for those...), and variety is always to the fore. Typically, we see, month after month, year after year, the votes cast are by the composers themselves; it is quite clear that the vast majority of BC members do not listen to any of the stuff, still less give their opinion. Their loss, in my view, but I would say that, wouldn't I..?
My point is that there is fine music being presented all the time, but not many, even among musicians, are willing to pick up on it. There is fine writing talent for all genres, but no motor for it to go 'main stream'. There are many splendid restaurants, at all price points, but 'junk fast food' is the preferred choice of the masses, apparently. It's a personal choice whether one wishes to panda to this, or carve a different route, swimming against the tide, in full knowledge that the satisfactions are very different.
Gigging..? Been there, done that. Would I do it again..? Of course, and I still do, albeit on very rare occasions now. Disclaimer: I'm a drummer, so dispaying individual flair, originality or prowess is not an option on most circuits. If it's not a regular 'four to the floor' or waltz time, It's because it's a jazz gig, so it's ting-tinkty-ting. Drummers rarely write songs (I know that there are exceptions, of course, but they are just that: exceptions...). Music, yes, but not 'songs'.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Dad3353

[TimR]

1 minute ago, Dad3353 said:

There are many splendid restaurants, at all price points, but 'junk fast food' is the preferred choice of the masses,

 

More water is consumed than wine. But I suspect as many people consume both just not in equal amounts. 

 

A higher volume of consumption can be fewer people doing it more often, it's not always more people.

 

 

[Dad3353]

6 minutes ago, TimR said:

...A higher volume of consumption can be fewer people doing it more often, it's not always more people...

 

Accent on the 'can be'. No, it's not always more people, but in the context of what I wrote, it is more people. Nothing wrong with that, either, but it needs to be recognised, when put in the context of performing/gigging etc. Playing to lots of folks a lot means systematically a certain common denominator. Playing to a niche has less of this 'mass effect' but, by definition, is a lower audience, in numbers.  

[ubit]

13 minutes ago, Dad3353 said:

There are many splendid restaurants, at all price points, but 'junk fast food' is the preferred choice of the masses, apparently. It's a personal choice whether one wishes to panda to this, or carve a different route, swimming against the tide, in full knowledge that the satisfactions are very different.

 

 

Quite a good analogy but splendid restaurants tend to be out of most peoples price range. Certainly to frequent often. Personally I hate fast food but it's popular because its cheap and easily available. I enjoy eating out at finer establishments but I can't do it every week, or even every month, much as I would like to.

 

The music you are referring to is ok but it's  objectionable as music is down to taste. You might think it's superb and worthy of anyones collection but others may not agree. This is where it gets hard. Getting something that lots of people like and want to pay money for.

[TimR]

I drive home listening to the radio.

 

When I have time to sit down and listen to Pink Floyd, I do.

 

I probably haven't listened to the BC competition as it requires me to actively do so.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by TimR

[BigRedX]

The other thing to remember about songwriting is that it has the potential to continue to provide you with a music-derived income (if that's what you want) long after the band that originally performed them has gone. I get regular (if small) royalty payments for songs I wrote back in 70s, mostly off the back of a rather glowing review by Johan Kugelberg (that also led to the band in question being asked to produce a retrospective CD for an indie label in Chicago some 25 years after our last gig). And every year as my back catalogue to recorded and commercially released songs grows, so do my performance royalties that are derived from them.

[Stub Mandrel]

2 hours ago, Dad3353 said:

(OK, a few duds here and there; I apoligise for those...)

 

Hey! Don't pick on me 😉

[Lfalex v1.1]

IF I could even rearrange my life to accommodate being in a band, learn all the material and find the money to rehearse and travel to gigs, I'm sure I'd remember why I hate gigging.

At the moment, the concept seems marvelous. 

The reality would be a tired, broke me standing at the back of a stage looking like Wednesday Addams.

Edited March 25, 2022 by Lfalex v1.1
Someone remind me why I play bass at all?

[Dan Dare]

9 hours ago, ubit said:

You see this is the thing. You were with a guy who could write songs. How many  musicians are out there who are riding on the coat tails of someone who can write decent material that people like? I'm not saying these people are not talented but there's a difference between being decent on your instrument and having the gift of creativity.

 

If I had a pound for every time I've heard that one - "there's a difference between being decent on your instrument and having the gift of creativity.".

 

Sorry, but that's hogwash. As it happens, I have written music, too (I'm a PRS member and receive regular, albeit small, royalty payments). So I guess I have "the gift of creativity", in addition to being "decent on my instrument". Not that I'd be so pretentious as to call it that. Btw, it ain't a "gift". Like any other skill or ability, it improves with effort, practice, acquired knowledge and experience.

 

It's not either/or. Plenty of musicians can and do create arrangements, parts, etc every day. They wouldn't claim to be "writers", but they do create music from scratch. They don't simply play pre-written lines. That was the situation in the band I was in with the guy who wrote the good songs. He brought lyrics and a melody to us and we created parts and arrangements. Sometimes, he had a strong idea of style, hooks/key phrases and so on, sometimes not. We even discussed and suggested changes. Some were agreed on and adopted and some weren't. It was a cooperative process, as is usually the case.