Mark King to Markbass

[EBS_freak]

9 hours ago, Al Krow said:

@EBS_freak - can't argue with any of your reply to my last post! 

... except that engaging the Sub 3 (low) generator on my Zvez Mastotron + Thumpinator + "pull" (= boosted) bass on my Mesa M6, with a cab that can handle low end really well e.g. Fearless F112 produces a BIG low end that is surprisingly 'tasty', without being mushy or boomy. 

I'm guessing that the sub harmonics generator on the Ashdown would be doing something similar? 

The reason your bass sounds meaty is effectively you are doing a massive bass boost in the eq before slamming it with a hpf (thumpinator) that is removing all the sub content. By doing the boost, all you are doing is compensating for the roll off that cabs naturally have in that range... and the drop in sensitivity in your ear (and eating a load of headroom from the amp). If your speakers can cope for it, great... but again, in the majority of venues, it will do you no favours on making your band sound good.

Ashdown’s claims are that they are adding an octave down - which makes no sense if they then cut it with a hpf - that would make it simply an octave pedal in an amp... but with no sub content in a sub harmonic generator. If they do hpf it, it’s a bit of a marketing blunder.

Dont get me wrong, Im a sub bass junkie - but also understand that introducing it in most venues is going to help you. Mushy, swampy reflections, trouble hearing the kick... the list continues... Right time, right place and all that... but why anybody would want to introduce such levels of sub bass on stage is just nonsensical. Leave that to the FoH.

Anyway, this is a Mark King/Mark Bass thread... I feel we may be going off topic somewhat! Happy to have another thread started to continue musings on sub bass (although I don't think I can say that much more on the matter!)

Edited July 29, 2019 by EBS_freak

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 3, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[EBS_freak]

20 minutes ago, Jus Lukin said:

Or was it a sub-harmonic generator which gave them that brown wet-look?

I've not owned my own Ashdown, but have used them in lots of rehearsal spaces and studios. If I remember, the sub feature is like an octave pedal, producing a synthesised note an octave below the one played. It tracks very well, but can be made to warble like any analogue octave.

@Ashdown Engineering are very helpful around here, so can probably clear up the matter for us!

Regarding sub-bass content and HPF, I think the rule of thumb is that 60hz or so is the crossover point between sub-bass and plain ol' bass, which resides between there and 200hz or so. Using those rough guides, one could filter at 20hz, or even 30/40hz for bass use, and then boost in the area between there and 60hz, therefore removing sub-sonics and sub-bass below the lowest fundamental, while still raising sub-bass content. As you say, in most rooms it would likely wallow and wash, spoiling the mix and making people feel a bit queasy, but I think it is technically possible. All in the name of good pedantry, of course! 😄

A quick google suggests that they were gold/bronze. Either way, I've now got google search engine regret. No doubt the next Cambridge Analytica is going to have a field day with their targetted ads.

Most subwoofers will struggle to produce anything meaningful at 30hz. Most non pro subwoofers support up to around 40 hz (but even then with big tail offs. 20 Hz is completely out of the equation as far as (standard) speakers go really. So if you've ever run a bass guitar through subs with boosted lows (say 40-80) through subs, you'll soon appreciate why using them in this manner would be undesirable in most venues.

PS _ What you just explained is what I alluded to above - or a band pass filter to be more specific.

Edited July 29, 2019 by EBS_freak

[Jus Lukin]

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Edited March 3, 2022 by Jus Lukin

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Jus Lukin said:

I'm a serial high-passer, but even then on medium stages with FOH subs I often turn the amp's low and low-mid EQs right down. A heavy handed sound person can swamp the stage in the omnidirectoinal stuff, so I just monitor the clarity end of things onstage. It does help clear up the mix when the FOH is close enough to really effect the onstage sound.

Whether all that deep bass they are pumping sounds good out front is another matter, but  I just leave that in their hands!

Sounds like you are on it and understand the fundamentals of getting a balanced “bottom end” on stage.

[Ashdown Engineering]

On 28/07/2019 at 00:20, Wolverinebass said:

Pity it sounds like a second rate fuzz pedal that costs £60. It's not great for the money.

Lol, can you elaborate on this please?

 

[Ashdown Engineering]

18 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Plus all that subharmonic garb is going to be responsible for pub bassists across the land sounding utterly cack. Sub bass doesn't work on small stages... and causes more headaches than it is worth.

Eh?

Sub Harmonics and Sub Bass are two very different things....

[LukeFRC]

8 minutes ago, Ashdown Engineering said:

Eh?

Sub Harmonics and Sub Bass are two very different things....

might be useful if you elaborate on the differences 

[Cuzzie]

58 minutes ago, Ashdown Engineering said:

Lol, can you elaborate on this please?

 

I think what he is saying is that there are a few very good amps on the market with a dedicated drive channel that surpasses what the GZR amp does at a similar or better price point, allied to the fact that if one buys a dedicated clean or power amp plus a fuzz pedal a sound of at least parity or better can be achieved

[dannybuoy]

57 minutes ago, LukeFRC said:

might be useful if you elaborate on the differences 

Sub bass is frequency content under 60Hz (or any arbitrary value down there, some might say < 40Hz)

Sub octave is a tone generated an octave under what you are playing. If you are playing high up on the neck through an octaver, you have a sub octave without excessive sub bass!

Octave down should be switch off if you're playing below regular open A IMHO, otherwise you're just generating speaker/trouser flappage (a technical term that).

[Ashdown Engineering]

18 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

I think what he is saying is that there are a few very good amps on the market with a dedicated drive channel that surpasses what the GZR amp does at a similar or better price point, allied to the fact that if one buys a dedicated clean or power amp plus a fuzz pedal a sound of at least parity or better can be achieved

Nonsense, plus the HOD isn't designed or intended to produce anything that resembles a fuzz sound so not sure where the fuzz pedal is coming into it? Have you played one, at volume?

[Cuzzie]

Nonsense to suggest another amp has a better drive channel at a similar or different price point?

Edited July 29, 2019 by Cuzzie

[Ashdown Engineering]

1 minute ago, Cuzzie said:

Nonsense to suggest another amp has a better drive channel at a similar price point?

Nope, as what's tonal perfection to one can often be anothers idea of hell as we all know only too well, so that's a moot point....

It's the £60 Fuzz pedal point we are taking exception to....

And this...

35 minutes ago, Cuzzie said:

one buys a dedicated clean or power amp plus a fuzz pedal a sound of at least parity or better can be achieved

You are welcome to bring whatever power amps and pedals you feel would achieve this and lets film it at our HQ, let us know when you want to do this.

[Wolverinebass]

1 hour ago, Ashdown Engineering said:

Lol, can you elaborate on this please?

 

It's quite simple really. The "Doom" knob only gave an overdrive towards a slight fuzz tone to my ears. You could get a much better sound with just an ABM and a pedal. Say something like a Wounded Paw Battering Ram EQ or a Cog Effects. 

So let's look at this objectively regardless of sound. Unless you're a Geezer Butler fan (I am as it happens), you'll probably not buy this due to several reasons. Weight being one. Cost being another when you could get say a Darkglass A/O head for about the same price at £1100. That's just one head with an overdrive built in!! That's before we list others and there are quite a few. Hence my comment of it not being worth the money.

Dismiss my views all you like, that's your right and I'm not bothered. I should say that I was very interested in the Geezer head until I tried one and didn't really like it (especially for £1200). Just my opinion and all that. I have no particular axe to grind here on Ashdown at all. Some of your stuff is great, some not so much. Like quite a lot of bass amp manufacturers.

Edited July 29, 2019 by Wolverinebass

[Al Krow]

4 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm a sub bass junkie...

Genuinely interested in what set up you are using to get a great sounding sub bass?

[EBS_freak]

OK - I'll bite. Back to the sub harmonic vs sub bass thing.

Yes, they are different - but the sub harmonic leads to an addition in the sub bass frequencies unless there is a hpf going on that prevents it from doing so. So whether they are different or not, the problem that results is the same. It goes to reason that adding the 1st order subharmonic of a note at say 70Hz, is going to give you 35Hz, which I think we can confirm is a figure that sits firmly in the sub bass range. So given that, it's not unreasonable to suggest that using sub harmonics introduces the low end sub bass mush that we have been discussing.

As part of a marketing (gimmick?) I guess it could convince some people to think - "wow, this amp sounds so massive in the bass - it's so massive sounding and fat, so much more than the bass amp next to it “ and ultimately bag a sale... when in reality, that sonic trait is going to be completely detrimental to their band's sound.

Edited July 29, 2019 by EBS_freak

[Al Krow]

13 minutes ago, Wolverinebass said:

It's quite simple really. The "Doom" knob only gave an overdrive towards a slight fuzz tone to my ears. You could get a much better sound with just an ABM and a pedal. Say something like a Wounded Paw Battering Ram EQ or a Cog Effects. 

So let's look at this objectively regardless of sound. Unless you're a Geezer Butler fan (I am as it happens), you'll probably not buy this due to several reasons. Weight being one. Cost being another when you could get say a Darkglass A/O head for about the same price at £1100. That's just one head with an overdrive built in!! That's before we list others and there are quite a few. Hence my comment of it not being worth the money.

Dismiss my views all you like, that's your right and I'm not bothered. I should say that I was very interested in the Geezer head until I tried one and didn't really like it (especially for £1200). Just my opinion and all that. I have no particular axe to grind here on Ashdown at all. Some of your stuff is great, some not so much. Like quite a lot of bass amp manufacturers.

PMT are retailing the GB for £829

[Wolverinebass]

1 minute ago, Al Krow said:

PMT are retailing the GB for £829

I didn't look. I remember it being £1199 on release.

[Cuzzie]

25 minutes ago, Ashdown Engineering said:

Nope, as what's tonal perfection to one can often be anothers idea of hell as we all know only too well, so that's a moot point....

It's the £60 Fuzz pedal point we are taking exception to....

And this...

You are welcome to bring whatever power amps and pedals you feel would achieve this and lets film it at our HQ, let us know when you want to do this.

Thanks for the invite, if passing and in the area will do, with some notice of course for yourselves, but in all likelihood I am not sure what it will achieve for me personally as I may still prefer another sound as you say, but feel free to do a shout out between other amps with drive channels and maybe the ABM as suggested with a dedicated drive pedal - would be good to hear the results.

Make sure its a distinctly average player like me doing the playing though, or everything will sound good, and that's unhelpful

[EBS_freak]

27 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Genuinely interested in what set up you are using to get a great sounding sub bass?

Its rare that you can get great sub sounding bass unless you have a room that can accommodate it. Reflections are a nightmare, especially if you start raising the SPL.

I can give you some starters though...

Bass wise, I pin everything around the kick drum. I actually clear the fundamental (typically found somewhere around 50Hz) and concentrate on the harmonic detail above that. So what about the low end detail I've just lost? I put it back of course - by using one of two methods. I either trigger a kick sample - or perfect sine wave. The latter gives you the perfect amount of energy but without all the surrounding fluff that can quickly become mushy. Of course, I would gate the kick to stop unwanted noise entering the mic. If available, I'll typically compress too. If you have the functionality on your desk, you can also use the gate to open the door to sine wave generator to achieve the same as an external trigger triggering a sine. With all that, you have some very subby but very hard hitting kick - but without all the mush typically associated.

Bass guitar wise, I'd be using a lot less sub bass than you would think. HPF would typically be at the first harmonic but again, only if the room allows it. The trouble is, you can still get a lot of mush, so I would be carving out some EQ to allow the fundamental and 1st and 2nd harmonics of the kick through. If available, I'd be side chaining the bass guitar to duck, triggered by the kick. This gives the kick drum the breathing space not to get lost when it hits. Of course, you can't do this with a standard bass amp... which is why I keep saying that ampless/silent/quiet stage is king and let the PA do all the work.

The really successful sub bass comes from clean frequencies - which is something that a bass guitar is not very good at achieving. It can't do those sine, saw, triangle waves that synths can... they include a lot of mush in the surrounding frequencies... which is why when you go to hear acts that have synthesiser produced bass, they are a lot cleaner, decipherable and hard hitting in the lows compared to your standard rock bands.

One of the easiest ways of keeping your mix clean, is to utilise aux fed subs and only put the instruments onto that aux that you want in your subs - this will give you more control over the eq carving to obtain your required lows, enable you to balance between the subs and tops and more importantly allow you to control how much sub bass you can introduce via those subs before the room takes over and it gets too muddy. Of course, with a standard LR crossover setup, the output of the whole set of speakers move with the fader as one... at which point, you have lost that fine level of control over your subs.

Edited July 29, 2019 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

PS How did we end up here?

[krispn]

8 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Its rare that you can get great sub sounding bass unless you have a room that can accommodate it. Reflections are a nightmare, especially if you start raising the SPL.

I can give you some starters though...

Bass wise, I pin everything around the kick drum. I actually clear the fundamental (typically found somewhere around 50Hz) and concentrate on the harmonic detail above that. So what about the low end detail I've just lost? I put it back of course - by using one of two methods. I either trigger a kick sample - or perfect sine wave. The latter gives you the perfect amount of energy but without all the surrounding fluff that can quickly become mushy. Of course, I would gate the kick to stop unwanted noise entering the mic. If available, I'll typically compress too. If you have the functionality on your desk, you can also use the gate to open the door to sine wave generator to achieve the same as an external trigger triggering a sine. With all that, you have some very subby but very hard hitting kick - but without all the mush typically associated.

Bass guitar wise, I'd be using a lot less sub bass than you would think. HPF would typically be at the first harmonic but again, only if the room allows it. The trouble is, you can still get a lot of mush, so I would be carving out some EQ to allow the fundamental and 1st and 2nd harmonics of the kick through. If available, I'd be side chaining the bass guitar to duck, triggered by the kick. This gives the kick drum the breathing space not to get lost when it hits. Of course, you can't do this with a standard bass amp... which is why I keep saying that ampless/silent/quiet stage is king and let the PA do all the work.

The really successful sub bass comes from clean frequencies - which is something that a bass guitar is not very good at achieving. It can't do those sine, saw, triangle waves that synths can... they include a lot of mush in the surrounding frequencies... which is why when you go to hear acts that have synthesiser produced bass, they are a lot cleaner, decipherable and hard hitting in the lows compared to your standard rock bands.

One of the easiest ways of keeping your mix clean, is to utilise aux fed subs and only put the instruments onto that aux that you want in your subs - this will give you more balance over how much sub bass you can introduce before it gets too muddy. Of course, with a standard LR crossover setup, the whole set of speakers move as one... at which point, you have lost that fine level of control over your subs.

Bravo! I love a good sound engineer breakdown of getting a sound to sit/mix well. 

[AndyTravis]

8 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

PS How did we end up here?

When two people are very much in love...they share a ‘special hug’...and nine months later...

oh, the thread?

[krispn]

8 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

PS How did we end up here?

Wanting a good sub bass sound but asking form a completely different perspective to the comprehensive description and viewpoint  you just gave. 😀

[Al Krow]

43 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

PS How did we end up here?

@eude the dude slagged off the appearance of MB amps, various of you jumped on the band wagon. I said that an amp's looks don't matter if it sounds great and, just to prove that looks are subjective, I suggested that the naysayers told us what a great looking amp looked like. They retorted the Mesa M6 and DG M900 were the best looking, at which point I realised I am surprisingly shallow as these were actually the two amp heads I currently own

Oh yes, then @burno70 had the temerity to say he thought the Ashdown GB looked great (which btw it does).

Then all hell broke loose (probably due to the 666W connection in the amp of doom). Again.

...😂 🤣

Edited July 29, 2019 by Al Krow