Mark King to Markbass

[EBS_freak]

Oh! NOLLY. (Sorry, only know by the forename, not the surname)

Yeah, I don't know much about him per se, just his name... but am aware of what he has apparently done for the sales of Dingwall. Wouldn't know about Darkglass (although rumour has it that they make beautiful looking amps).

Talking of Darkglass, I know that their pedal sales are very much in keeping with the genre... but pretty much all the players of Darkglass that I know, don't use them for the genre which they are perhaps more famous for.

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Wolverinebass said:

The joys of auto correct Russ. I went back and changed it. 😂

I wouldn't worry - I've just realised that I've just described a naked woman as wearing leather trousers... that doesn't make much sense does it?

[EBS_freak]

On another tangent - I've just realised that I've played a Dingwall NG2 - I quite liked it, for what it was... but hated the cheese grater on the pickguard. I'd have to have that taken off!

[stingrayPete1977]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

(Yes, there are artists out there who abuse the small manufacturers - those players are the REAL enwhorsers... especially when they flip the goods on for a profit).

 

I can't believe how swiftly some of these things get sold off! 

[Lozz196]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Talking of Darkglass, I know that their pedal sales are very much in keeping with the genre... but pretty much all the players of Darkglass that I know, don't use them for the genre which they are perhaps more famous for.

Yep, bassist for The Cockney Rejects uses a Darkglass amp, sounds great but nothing like the sound that Darkglass are more famed for.

[EBS_freak]

54 minutes ago, stingrayPete1977 said:

I can't believe how swiftly some of these things get sold off! 

A pure gem of a dutch auction.

[eude]

1 hour ago, Lozz196 said:

Yep, bassist for The Cockney Rejects uses a Darkglass amp, sounds great but nothing like the sound that Darkglass are more famed for.

I hear a lot of folks saying you can get a lot more than that done to death djent bass sound out of DG kit, but it's hard to find examples. If anyone has any good links to share with that kind of stuff I'd be keen to hear them...

Eude

[Cuzzie]

Bassist for Kylie at Glastonbury used a Darkglass M900 amp.

It’ll be all over iplayer

[EBS_freak]

1 minute ago, Cuzzie said:

Bassist for Kylie at Glastonbury used a Darkglass M900 amp.

It’ll be all over iplayer

Or at least the DI sound of it being processed by the FoH desk will...

[Cuzzie]

11 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

Or at least the DI sound of it being processed by the FoH desk will...

True, and at times other things in the signal chain but it will give some idea of a different use - even if it was just amp/cab again depending on the cab and voicing of speakers you will also get a different sound, but you notice a definite difference between the clean and when the drive kicks in for a song

[mart3442]

4 hours ago, Wolverinebass said:

Plus a truckload of cash from Hartke I believe. I guess the fact that Ampegs were somewhat unreliable at the time didn't help.

Not so much the amps, as the company, apparently they let him down when he was stuck for tour support.

[uk_lefty]

4 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Do endoresements really work like that? This isn't even a King signature... so unlikely that he's getting a kickback from them. Very few artists get stuff for "free". They normally have the opportunity to buy gear at an "artist rate". It's only the real top dogs that command stuff for free... Or conversely, the small companies that are eager to have some sort of name playing their products, they'll give it away free in the hope that it generates some sort of interest. (Yes, there are artists out there who abuse the small manufacturers - those players are the REAL enwhorsers... especially when they flip the goods on for a profit).

I have never and am incredibly unlikely to get any kind of music "endorsement" but I can speak of experience of sports sponsorships. At under 14 County level I was offered a discount on equipment, anywhere from 15-40% depending on the brand. Going up to playing in the men's 1st Division (not Premier) I got one set of free kit for one season only and that was from a minor brand. The point being to try and be as visible as possible, not because of my name but because they wanted to see as many players as possible in the top leagues and junior representative sides in their gear. It went back to big discounts after that. Following a brief stint out the game I got "trade prices" on kit from major brands when playing in the third tier. When a full set of kit costs near £2000 and you can wear out a lot of it in less than a season it's worth doing for the player at least. The big boys in the Premier league got much better support, training sets of kit (recognising they train so often they need at least two of everything and will go through three or four sets of some items of kit). All of this is paid for out of the 'marketing budget' and is therefore an overhead to the trade buyers and end customers. I only know of one person who got paid to endorse kit and they used his name on it and had his design input. 

I guess with music gear it's different. At the Marcus Miller masterclass where he's plugging Sire basses he openly says his Fender jazz is the best bass he's ever had, it's on every record, etc. You have to be less "on brand" with music gear I think because there's an emotional connection to collectors items from the past. So maybe the cash is only there for a select few with the marketing value, the rest are about tour support for their gain and for the brands its about maximum visibility, e.g. "70% of bassists playing download were using X brand of amps" would be a great ad for a rock image bass amp brand regardless of whether you know who the players are. 

Edited July 30, 2019 by uk_lefty

[fretmeister]

5 hours ago, eude said:

I hear a lot of folks saying you can get a lot more than that done to death djent bass sound out of DG kit, but it's hard to find examples. If anyone has any good links to share with that kind of stuff I'd be keen to hear them...

Eude

Every Saturday I play big band with my DG amp.

[Al Krow]

5 hours ago, eude said:

I hear a lot of folks saying you can get a lot more than that done to death djent bass sound out of DG kit, but it's hard to find examples. If anyone has any good links to share with that kind of stuff I'd be keen to hear them...

Eude

Been using my DG M900 for my two pub / function bands with a BF SC for the past 18 months. Standard covers from early 60s to 2010s. 

[LukeFRC]

8 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

Sometimes people just fancy a change. I don't think there's any slur on Ashdown's support why people move on. (Not that he moved from Ashdown to Markbass... he was currently on TC)

Artist's can be somewhat prickly people to deal with. I know somebody who moved on because they didn't think that the manufacturer was putting their image in enough magazine adverts...

And since TC got bought out by the guys who own Behringer... I can't say I blame him. 
I imagine at one level he must be like us, bass gear nerds who change their gear from time to time, just because we want to try something new

[Chienmortbb]

On 29/07/2019 at 15:21, EBS_freak said:

Very much agreed - all sound is subjective. If it sounds good to you, it's right. Of course, many other people may disagree... but that's why there's different audio equipment, different instruments yiddah yaddah.

Interesting comment about being built for one person and it's only their view that matters? That's not a particular wise move if you are looking at shifting units! Still, there's probably enough GB fans who could potentially take an interest.

Also people, it's worth noting that the class D thing is actually quite a big market in the UK - but outside of these boundaries, especially in Europe, the rockers all gravitate towards big lumps of iron in their amps as opposed to class D and lightweight.

Wrong thread I know but I have been to gigs where it seems the kick is set up first (. Close to using up all the headroom) on its own it sounds great. Once the band plays is obliterates not only the bass guitar but everything else. Are they taught this, are their ears shot ( soon will be) or is it that they have never been trained. 

I agree that an HPF is a very useful addition to a bassists arsenal. In my opinion many can be set too low. If you model a speaker in WINisd then put a forth order filter on, based around 35HZ it makes almost no difference to the output but reduces the work the speaker ( amp amp of course) does considerably. 

[EBS_freak]

23 minutes ago, Chienmortbb said:

Wrong thread I know but I have been to gigs where it seems the kick is set up first (. Close to using up all the headroom) on its own it sounds great. Once the band plays is obliterates not only the bass guitar but everything else. Are they taught this, are their ears shot ( soon will be) or is it that they have never been trained. 

I agree that an HPF is a very useful addition to a bassists arsenal. In my opinion many can be set too low. If you model a speaker in WINisd then put a forth order filter on, based around 35HZ it makes almost no difference to the output but reduces the work the speaker ( amp amp of course) does considerably. 

The kick is used as the focal point as that is what derives the beat. If you can’t hear or in some cases, feel the beat, the whole band sounds flat and lifeless. Of course, in larger venues this problem is furthered because amplifying that lowend is really difficult and it gets soaked up quickly. I agree though, a lot of sound guys hit the kick so hard it pretty much over powers everything else. In smaller venues, where the kit is generally the loudest anyway, the overpowering of the kick is all too common - and the bleed of the cymbals into the vocal mics... you end up with all low end and piercing cymbals through the speakers. This is where your drummers have to have some sort of self restraint and the vocalists impeccable mic technique. If they aren’t eating the mic at all times, they aren’t doing it right.

Anyway, you are right - you will save a lot of power by hpfing. Additionally, you may get away with going much higher than 35Hz (again many bass cabs won’t go that low anyway) as the effects of psycho acoustics put the rest back in. I’m hoping guys reading this will be inspired to have a play. As I stated earlier, losing the lowend may actually give you more and ultimately make your band sound better! 

[Chienmortbb]

3 hours ago, EBS_freak said:

The kick is used as the focal point as that is what derives the beat. If you can’t hear or in some cases, feel the beat, the whole band sounds flat and lifeless. Of course, in larger venues this problem is furthered because amplifying that lowend is really difficult and it gets soaked up quickly. I agree though, a lot of sound guys hit the kick so hard it pretty much over powers everything else. In smaller venues, where the kit is generally the loudest anyway, the overpowering of the kick is all too common - and the bleed of the cymbals into the vocal mics... you end up with all low end and piercing cymbals through the speakers. This is where your drummers have to have some sort of self restraint and the vocalists impeccable mic technique. If they aren’t eating the mic at all times, they aren’t doing it right.

Anyway, you are right - you will save a lot of power by hpfing. Additionally, you may get away with going much higher than 35Hz (again many bass cabs won’t go that low anyway) as the effects of psycho acoustics put the rest back in. I’m hoping guys reading this will be inspired to have a play. As I stated earlier, losing the lowend may actually give you more and ultimately make your band sound better! 

I agree, I would plump for around 40/45 Hz. I also agree that the kick must be heard but not over-power the other instruments, I suspect some of the problems with the kick though PAs is also over use of dynamics on digital mixers. 

 

[la bam]

For those of you who cut at 45hz etc, whilst being fine on stage, how does it affect the foh sound when using subs etc? I'm just curious whether below 45hz is needed for pa purposes?

[fretmeister]

11 minutes ago, la bam said:

For those of you who cut at 45hz etc, whilst being fine on stage, how does it affect the foh sound when using subs etc? I'm just curious whether below 45hz is needed for pa purposes?

Good question! I'd like to know that too.

Never owned a Thumpinator but I can see why it might be a good idea.

[Al Krow]

27 minutes ago, la bam said:

For those of you who cut at 45hz etc, whilst being fine on stage, how does it affect the foh sound when using subs etc? I'm just curious whether below 45hz is needed for pa purposes?

In my experience FOH sound engineers will start cutting the bass** at 120 Hz given half a chance! My preference would be for them not to be cutting the bass above 60Hz (1st fundamental of low B) or above 80 Hz for 4 string basses (= 1st fundamental of low E).

Thumpinator cuts at 28Hz and below, so is literally just removing sub sonic crud that no one hears. If you put at the start of your chain (as recommended by the maker) it also means that your compressor, if you're using one, is not needing to expend effort dealing with compressing high energy bottom end. Nice little piece of "always on" kit on my pedal board.

Btw your DG M900 has a built in hpf - but no details from what frequency it is cutting or the steepness of the cut.

** as opposed to the kick drum

Edited July 31, 2019 by Al Krow

[la bam]

Big rigs and big pa set ups for big events will have systems designed to go very very low. It's those type of gigs I'm thinking of.

[BigRedX]

53 minutes ago, la bam said:

Big rigs and big pa set ups for big events will have systems designed to go very very low. It's those type of gigs I'm thinking of.

Do you really want sub bass? IME it's pretty nasty, uncontrollable in most venues and mostly contributes to the band sound terrible.

[EBS_freak]

15 hours ago, Al Krow said:

In my experience FOH sound engineers will start cutting the bass** at 120 Hz given half a chance! My preference would be for them not to be cutting the bass above 60Hz (1st fundamental of low B) or above 80 Hz for 4 string basses (= 1st fundamental of low E).

Thumpinator cuts at 28Hz and below, so is literally just removing sub sonic crud that no one hears. If you put at the start of your chain (as recommended by the maker) it also means that your compressor, if you're using one, is not needing to expend effort dealing with compressing high energy bottom end. Nice little piece of "always on" kit on my pedal board.

Btw your DG M900 has a built in hpf - but no details from what frequency it is cutting or the steepness of the cut.

** as opposed to the kick drum

There's a good chance that the bass will start getting cut quite high in the frequency spectrum by the engineer - but the key element is the slope with which that cut occurs. A slope of 48dB/octave is worlds apart from 6dB/octave. Never mix by numbers - mix with what your ears are saying. If the bass sounds huge and how you want with a roll off beginning at 120Hz, then great.

With aux fed subs, you have a lot more control of this whole sub band  than simply shaping EQs. Your stated preference doesn't necessarily stand as the room itself may lend itself to boosting the lows - and is why a lot of  serious engineers will invest in SMAART to understand and tune the PA to the room to get a more flat response across the system. In the same way that rooms can have hot frequencies, rooms can have hot lows. For if example, if the speakers are coupling with the floors/room etc and as a consequence, enhancing the levels of low end that is produced, you will need to cut those lows, 100%.

The Thumpinator is primarily about increasing headroom in your amp and not making your speakers work so hard to produce frequencies that you can't hear. I would still wager for most (all) band situations, you will want to be cutting the bass output way above 28Hz. Hell, most subs can't even get that low. (You are looking at some specialist cinema subs to get that sort of low end rumbling). Pro subs tend to have a maximum lowend frequency response somewhere between 30 and 40. If you were to put those sort of signals through them as a constant, they wouldn't last long and the music would sound awful anyway.

Get some raw stems in a DAW and play with the bass and see how much the mix cleans up and bass sound tighter and hits harder as soon as you start taking away the sub bass...

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, BigRedX said:

Do you really want sub bass? IME it's pretty nasty, uncontrollable in most venues and mostly contributes to the band sound terrible.

Bingo. Music no. Jurassic Park in the cinema, hell yes. (Although wouldn't want it in the theme tune either).