Alembic neck laminates. I laughed till I cried....

[honza992]

I'm designing my next build and thinking about what laminates to use for the neck.  This page makes me laugh every time I visit.  It's like a salad bar for choosing upper mids or crushing lows.  I know I'm not supposed to knock the legendary builders, but this is utter rubbish.  In my opinion of course😁

http://www.alembic.com/info/wood_neck.html

Edited July 19, 2019 by honza992

[ahpook]

Aaaah, Alembic....still hearing things are they ?

They did do a lot of LDS back in the 60s....

 

Edited July 19, 2019 by ahpook

[Geek99]

I see there is no option for fairy dust being sprinkled in the glue there . Colour me disappointed 🙄

[Christine]

I'm a big believer in the type of wood making a difference to the sound. Wood with a greater damping effect will kill vibrations from the strings quickly so they don't feedback back into the strings, conversely wood that doesn't damp will feedback more to the strings. Laminates have the effect of damping as the glue line is flexible and will kill vibration quickly (hence loudspeaker cabinets are made from ply).

There was a video posted here maybe a year ago where someone had a neck and made a few identical block bodies out of different timbers and the difference in sound was astounding.

That said, the Alembic claims do sound a little fanciful

[Andyjr1515]

What I did have to chuckle at was that, after 7 or 8 examples of 'This isn't JUST a custom neck.... this is an M&S custom neck' they the ended with, paraphrased, 'or you can have all-maple which we use for most of our instruments'.  

[durhamboy]

I agree that different woods do influence 'tone' (ah, that magical word) though because of the often striking differences exhibited in acoustic instruments,  more weight is sometimes given to wood types and their effect in solid body electrics than is really apparent, especially once tone shaping electronics and massive volume are added. (The difference in sound/tone we hear while playing an instrument at home volumes, or unplugged, would almost certainly be more pronounced than any possible variations in wood species would to someone in an audience at a live venue.) 

Heat, cold, rainfall levels, soil quality, competition from other vegetation and other factors, all play a part in affecting how trees grow, which can effect their growth rate and therefore density and weight per cubic foot and it will affect the tone and sustain to some degree. (Lee Sklar said that when choosing the body for his famous two pickup P Bass, he tapped a whole lot of Alder bodies at the factory and picked the one he liked based on it's particular tap tone.) 

American northern hard ash and southern swamp ash are the same tree species grown in different climatic areas. The weight and density can vary greatly from "swamp" to "northern", but also the weight and density varies markedly depending on where in the tree a board is cut. Some sources say that higher in the tree produces heavier boards than lower down, so high cut swamp ash might weigh about the same as low cut northern ash. 

Isn't it all so wonderfully complicated? In the end, a good sounding instrument, is a good sounding instrument, whether it's built from 25 super exotic hardwoods, an old plank from the shed, or a block of plywood. I love wood, it looks and feels beautiful and every piece is unique. Plus it helps produce the sounds we want and expect to hear and we can feel it doing it as we play. But it comes from a natural, organic, growing thing and it will vary,. That's why it's exciting to play the first note on a newly built instrument...

 

[fleabag]

For the deepest low end response, look no further than Ebony neck laminates. Also prepare yourself for unheard of fundamental sustain

I concur with what they saaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[LukeFRC]

On 19/07/2019 at 09:39, honza992 said:

I'm designing my next build and thinking about what laminates to use for the neck.  This page makes me laugh every time I visit.  It's like a salad bar for choosing upper mids or crushing lows.  I know I'm not supposed to knock the legendary builders, but this is utter rubbish.  In my opinion of course😁

http://www.alembic.com/info/wood_neck.html

They have ten different options and they are trying to describe the differences so their customers can choose. 
I don't mind that too much as they are saying "we've done the thinking, and here are your options and what we think the differences are between them" - that way everyone who comes asking for a guitar with a bassy tone and not much attack in the highs should get pointed the same direction... this is much better than custom sandwiches being made up for each and every bass based on gut feel that an Elm/Ebony/MDF sandwich would be better for metal than the one with the elm and ebony the other way around

[chris_b]

So you guys know more about making basses than Alembic?

Of course you do. . . . !

[Geek99]

Yes but maybe it’s all a bit snake oil / mystical ?

if I wanted to make a fat wedge of cash I’d pretend it all made a jot of difference ...,

[durhamboy]

8 hours ago, chris_b said:

So you guys know more about making basses than Alembic?

Of course you do. . . . !

I don't think anyone is saying that, (Alembic are obviously very good and experienced guitar and bass builders, but so are many other companies and small scale custom builders who may have different opinions and approaches.) only that some of the statements about the benefits or sonic differences, of relatively small additions of slightly different timbers, (at least in density, hardness,and weight) might be considered a little florid and the actual real world effect might not be as obvious to the ear as suggested. (At least in a solid body electrified instrument). Laminating necks can provide the opportunity to impart a degree of stiffness and possibly a resistance to twisting, in a neck, but the direction that the grain of the various pieces and whether the strips are flat sawn, or quarter sawn, is possibly more critical than the types of timbers, as long as all the timbers are proven to be suitable for the structure they're applied to. Certainly some combinations due to colour and or grain, might provide a more visually appealing combination and that's fair enough.

Although I started out building guitars and basses in the 70's, with laminated through necks of exotic timbers, I've spent most of the past twenty years building guitars, not basses and multi layered laminated necks and bodies are generally much less popular with guitar players than they were back in 70's and 80's. In fact many electric guitarists argue that laminated bodies inhibit vibration transfer and actively avoid such instruments. (Likewise, active electronics are much less popular with six stringers than bassists, perhaps actives compensate for any possible negative effects of lamination's? Or perhaps six stringers are just more conservative than bass players when it comes to innovations? ) 😉

[Jimothey]

Unfortunately this is an argument that is going to go on till the end of time!!!!

In my opinion and what I’ve experienced in the difference between my basses is they all have maple necks and quite a few of them have Rosewood boards and some have Maple boards but they have different body woods (Alder, Basswood, Paulownia, Ply etc) and they all sound different but is that because of the timber combinations or is it they all have different style pickups in them or is it they sound different because some are passive and some are active?????

So my point is I think the choice of pickups and preamps etc is more important than the timber used, and does the timber really make that much difference to the sound or do we like to think there is a difference to justify the fact that spending ridiculous amounts on custom basses using exotic woods in the necks and bodies will give you the sound you want?????

But there again I might be completely wrong!!............🤔

[itu]

5 hours ago, Jimothey said:

So my point is I think the choice of pickups and preamps etc is more important than the timber used, and does the timber really make that much difference to the sound...?????

As said so many times before:

If wood was homogenous material, there would be no issue stating this or that. Now we are able to compare many stable and uniform materials like steels and plastics. Within one log there are already so many discontinuities and irregularities that we can just say that the material is wood. It is not very reasonable to give exact specs. It is this simple.

Different woods sound different and may even sound the same. But if you try to produce two identical instruments, put that log aside and choose another material.

[Christine]

This isn't the video I was on about but it's similar, see what you think

 

[Si600]

It may because I'm listening to it on a phone but they sound pretty the same to me.

[Jimothey]

5 minutes ago, Si600 said:

It may because I'm listening to it on a phone but they sound pretty the same to me.

I just listened through earphones and I heard that when played acoustically there was a very slight difference in sound but when he powered it up they sounded the same which in my opinion just backs up my previous post 

[Christine]

You can't hear the difference? I think it's quite dramatic, I can hear the changes with my eyes shut quite distinctly

[Jimothey]

49 minutes ago, Christine said:

You can't hear the difference? I think it's quite dramatic, I can hear the changes with my eyes shut quite distinctly

No sorry I really couldn’t!! Maybe you’ve got a better ear for it than me?

Now to me this dramatically different

In my opinion the big test for whether which wood you use makes a difference would be if you could identify what wood the bass is just by sound alone??

Edited July 21, 2019 by Jimothey

[Si600]

1 hour ago, Christine said:

You can't hear the difference? I think it's quite dramatic, I can hear the changes with my eyes shut quite distinctly

Nope, I can't either. I tried it with my eyes closed as well in case I was influenced by the pictures but no. Sorry.

[honza992]

Hee hee, I knew this was a can of worms!

 

@chris_b I'm sure no one here would claim to be better at making guitars than Alembic, I know I'm not, fact.  But we are definitely more honest in the marketing of the guitars we do make. 

Physics, unfortunately, is not something you can have an opinion about.  It simply is.  (Well, maybe at a sub-atomic level, but even Alembic don't make claims about that).   The body and neck of an electric guitar simply provide two anchor points (the nut and the bridge) for the string to vibrate between.  I'm not claiming wood doesn't effect sound, it does.  I'm pretty sure a guitar with a solid ebony neck would sound slightly different to a balsa wood neck.  More or less its a matter of how 'floppy' the neck is.  A more floppy neck absorbs the strings' higher frequency vibrations and slows the attack, that would make sense to Isaac Newton.  So if you make a neck from multiple veneers it will still have one 'floppiness' value, but Alembic claim that by adding in different veneers into the neck construction you can add in particular sound characteristics.  Add in mahogany for upper mids, ebony for lows, etc etc.  Cosmetically it sounds like an appealing theory, but I'm pretty sure it's  wrong.  

But then I did A Level physics 30 years ago, so what do I know. 

Any PhD'ers out there that can give a definitive view?

[durhamboy]

1 hour ago, Jimothey said:

No sorry I really couldn’t!! Maybe you’ve got a better ear for it than me?

Now to me this dramatically different

In my opinion the big test for whether which wood you use makes a difference would be if you could identify what wood the bass is just by sound alone??

Is that identifying the type of wood by sound alone in a finished electrified bass, or identifying the wood used on it's own by tap testing it? (both tests might be interesting?) I'm not being a smart derrière, I just read it one way then thought maybe I understood it wrong...

I remember reading an interview with Lee Sklar saying he picked the body for his famous double P pickup bass from a big selection of P bass shaped bodies at the Kramer (?) factory, by tap testing them until he found the one he thought sounded best. All were Alder....

But yes, this is one of those discussions that will never lead to a definitive conclusion. Wood is variable, even within species, the combination of pickups, hardware, wood, electronics, playing style and the human ear means none of us hear exactly what anyone else hears. (And each of us will decide at what point experienced comment passes into marketing hype....)

This will live on alongside, which finish allows the wood to vibrate more, nitro, poly, oil finishes, or no finish at, all and does the dead dried wood in a guitar body really "breathe"?

[Jimothey]

@durhamboy I meant in a finished bass for example I would record the same riff on a few of my basses that are all made out of different body timbers and different fretboards then put the people to the test who whole heartedly believe that the wood used is the most important part the bass to identify the woods used just by ear alone and if they can do it I will then believe the whole ‘tonewood’ thing but until that happens I’m going to remain sceptical........but I guarantee most people would be able to easily identify whether it’s a Jazz, Precision, Stingray, Rick etc tho

Like others on this thread have also said it just feels a bit like a marketing ploy if you want to make your neck sound more ‘bossy’ then add 3 ebony laminates oh yeah and that will cost you over 3k extra and pair that with a medium growly Coco bolo fretboard for an extra 500 like the OP I find this laughable if you really buy into the tonewood thing if they told you that they can impregnate the body wood with unicorn sweat which will make it sound more ‘tonal and magical’ for an extra 8k some people would believe it and think that it will make a difference and probably order it 

Sorry if I come across like I’m belittling anyone’s opinion I’m just giving my honest opinion

Edited July 22, 2019 by Jimothey

[durhamboy]

1 hour ago, Jimothey said:

Sorry if I come across like I’m belittling anyone’s opinion but I’m just being honest. 

No, at least I didn't read what you were saying that way.

I tend to agree with you, while I think the woods used in a guitar or bass will add to the overall sound to some degree, I think it would be very hard for anyone to identify small amounts of particular woods in lamination's, they'd certainly have much better hearing than I have if they could. 

Mostly I'm just happy if I build something from quality pieces of wood with a good tap tone, quality electrics and pickups, good hardware and it turns out to be comfortable and sounds good when played and looks nice.... 

 

[Christine]

8 hours ago, Jimothey said:

No sorry I really couldn’t!! Maybe you’ve got a better ear for it than me?

Now to me this dramatically different

In my opinion the big test for whether which wood you use makes a difference would be if you could identify what wood the bass is just by sound alone??

The differences are obvious there but there are many factors contributing to that. I'm surprised you can't hear the differences in the video I posted, especially with the pressure treated Fir, it has a much fatter sound, the other two are admittedly closer. I would expected the Fir to have sounded different because of its natural laminar growth

[BigRedX]

23 hours ago, Christine said:

This isn't the video I was on about but it's similar, see what you think

 

Unfortunately its a sample of one of each type of wood, so scientifically the result is meaningless. Give a sample size of 100+ of each type of body wood and get consistent results from the majority of each sample and I will concede that you can make absolute statements about the effect of a particular type of wood.