Technique ignorant

[Ed_S]

20 hours ago, Raymondo said:

You see…. all this aoelian and dorian mode malarkey is exactly what passes me by.

Oh  i'm impressed by you all and a little in awe of your knowledge...just not bothered about joining you.

I just listen to the song and play what I hear .

If I get it wrong " technically", I don't worry ...it sounds ok to me so I play it that way...

Frank Zappa must be turning in his grave!😂

As a kid I got taken into a musical aptitude test (‘the Bentley test’, I think it was called) without any clue why or what one was, got told I had perfect pitch (which I’m still not completely sure about to this day) and about 6 of us from the year group got the option of a loaner violin from the music services and paying for lessons. My mum went for the idea and I worked my way up from scratch to playing with orchestras that had a grade 8 standard entry requirement.

Thing is, the only grade I ever took was 3 because my theory knowledge was always nonexistent, and whilst I could sight read very well when I had to, it was just a means of mechanically mapping the dots to the instrument and there was never really any understanding or analysis going on of what I was doing. As soon as I knew what my part was meant to sound like, I stopped looking at the dots and just played it, watching the conductor for extra dynamics etc.

For the one exam I took, my teacher resorted to saying things like “if they ask you to play -whatever- arpeggio then just think ‘the sad sounding one with the extra bit on the end’ and start on the note they mention”; like I say, no actual understanding or desire to understand but still a pass with merit. I never practiced at home - the thing never left its case between lessons, rehearsals and performances.

It worked well for a long time and I enjoyed playing in the orchestras, but my teacher was quite rightly getting fed up with my indifference, and I was getting bored with his attempts to make me learn things I had no interest in knowing, so I gave up violin and started playing guitar and bass. I’ve never had a lesson and still have no idea what I’m playing, why or whether my technique is any good, but all the years of classical music have helped by ‘tuning in’ my ear so I can apply musical devices, even if cluelessly, and I suppose my fingers were used to playing on strings!

Part of me understands the value of tuition and wishes I’d actually worked at music theory, but the other 99% is perfectly happy to be self taught and sans-dots. Plus I play all the time at home now because I want to rather than am expected to.. my basses are only ever in their cases if they’re  going somewhere!

[musicbassman]

On 24/07/2019 at 21:10, Ricky 4000 said:

(sorry Tina Weymouth, if you're looking in) 😔

Well, Tina Weymouth is/was a very creative bass player, and I'd respectfully hazard a guess that she knew diddly squat about music theory, she just 'heard' a possible line in her head and then figured it out on the bass. And this is how wonderful stuff like 'Once in a Lifetime' comes about - it's pure artistry.

I think the most useful skill to learn for bass players is being able to hear intervals accurately. Once you can do this, you can understand how some dep bass players can just arrive at a gig to play with some covers band they've never set eyes on before, and play a whole list of covers almost note perfect straight off, with no music or chord charts to help. Now that's a real skill..

[ambient]

1 hour ago, musicbassman said:

Well, Tina Weymouth is/was a very creative bass player, and I'd respectfully hazard a guess that she knew diddly squat about music theory, she just 'heard' a possible line in her head and then figured it out on the bass. And this is how wonderful stuff like 'Once in a Lifetime' comes about - it's pure artistry.

I think the most useful skill to learn for bass players is being able to hear intervals accurately. Once you can do this, you can understand how some dep bass players can just arrive at a gig to play with some covers band they've never set eyes on before, and play a whole list of covers almost note perfect straight off, with no music or chord charts to help. Now that's a real skill..

I’d disagree. Whilst I agree that is a useful skill to have, it’s not really going to help someone to know what they can play or maybe can’t play in a song.

I think the most important skill a bass player can have is knowing the notes on their instrument, and knowing how they work within the context of what the band is playing. If someone says this is a II, V, I in D, then you need to know what you can play over that. It’s pretty basic stuff, even if you only play the root note and basic chord tones. That root note and chord connection. That’s often the eureka or lightbulb moment for students. When they see how what they’re playing is connected to the chords being played. 

With regard to dep players, that has more to do with it being their job. I’ve done it myself, most function bands have pretty much the same songs in their repertoire. The only thing that can change is the key, it’s pretty easy if you do know what I said was in my opinion the most important skill, to just play a part in a different key at the drop of a hat. 

Just my opinion of course, no doubt others will have a different idea.

😊

Edited July 26, 2019 by ambient

[musicbassman]

9 minutes ago, ambient said:

Just my opinion of course, no doubt others will have a different idea.

Absolutely ambient, I can't disagree with you there.

Just to clarify, when I said 'intervals' I also included in that the ability to hear chord changes - i.e. if a guitarist plays a chord sequence and says "that was in G" you could name the chords being played, and could also hear additional notes within those chords - e.g. the difference in sound between and straight major and a Maj 7th.

And let's not get started on the 'perfect pitch' debate.  🙄   (and no, I certainly haven't been blessed/cursed with this! )

[ambient]

4 minutes ago, musicbassman said:

Absolutely ambient, I can't disagree with you there.

Just to clarify, when I said 'intervals' I also included in that the ability to hear chord changes - i.e. if a guitarist plays a chord sequence and says "that was in G" you could name the chords being played, and could also hear additional notes within those chords - e.g. the difference in sound between and straight major and a Maj 7th.

And let's not get started on the 'perfect pitch' debate.  🙄   (and no, I certainly haven't been blessed/cursed with this! )

I was at uni with a guy who did have perfect pitch, he also had an amazing ability of recall. He could hear you play something once, then just know it. I don’t think he ever bothered learning anything for an exam, he just listened to everyone else play it, then reproduced it. It was scary. He could play amazing jazz piano too, despite never having had a piano lesson in his life.

[mikel]

Lets just agree that everyone is different and learn in different ways. Knowing the far end of a fart about musical theory is no guarantee of skill or musicality, or the ability to busk. And, lack of grounding in music technique is no indicator when it comes to originality or inventiveness. Listen to the music and either like or dislike the players style and ability.

[lowdown]

45 minutes ago, musicbassman said:

 

And let's not get started on the 'perfect pitch' debate.  🙄   (and no, I certainly haven't been blessed/cursed with this! )

As a working musician, having good relative pitch is more useful.  To identify the intervals on the fly is what makes for good busking, along with retaining chord structures in your head. If you have that together, you can busk most working situations. Plus,  if you can remember most of the classic & standard Bass lines, you are tailor made for stress free depping.

Over the years, finding good readers to dep has mostly not been a problem, but trying to get players to walk in and cover a gig without a pad on the night, or even in advance has been sometimes, less successful.

If you do both (read & busk), even better.

Edited July 26, 2019 by lowdown

[ambient]

23 minutes ago, lowdown said:

As a working musician, having good relative pitch is more useful.  To identify the intervals on the fly is what makes for good busking, along with retaining chord structures in your head. If you have that together, you can busk most working situations. Plus,  if you can remember most of the classic & standard Bass lines, you are tailor made for stress free depping.

Over the years, finding good readers to dep has mostly not been a problem, but trying to get players to walk in and cover a gig without a pad on the night, or even in advance has been sometimes, less successful.

If you do both (read & busk), even better.

I did some gigs with a worship band a few years ago. I stopped after a while because I felt like a fraud doing it. I was only there because they were paying me £50 every Sunday morning. The MD was playing keyboards, he would announce the key; A minor, D major, or whatever. Then he’d hold up his hand as we were playing with different numbers of fingers showing to represent the next chord. I believe it’s based on the Nashville thing?