Ear Plugs Don’t Work

[Billy Apple]

42 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

The NHS website confirms they assist.

Earplugs are sold with attenuation specs that have to be supported by testing to comply with advertising rules and Health and Safety Regulations. Thus there is ample proof they are effective. You have also been provided with analogy such as the crash helmet that still means a wearer is at risk of head injury. To sell earplugs "that do not work" would be a criminal offence of fraud, as well as contravening the various Sale of Goods statutes and Consumer Protection Regulations.

 

Using standard dictionary definitions of the words you used in your title and in your original post there is no other way to read it. It is obviously and demonstrably inaccurate. 

If this forum was subject to newspaper oversight from the PCC a retraction or  correction or clarification may well have been ordered. No earplug maker claims they protect against 100% of hearing damage. No PPE maker of any type would make such a claim. But they do have to show that what they claim about their product is true - particularly for any formal safety standards markings. A steel toe boot is very protective - unless you drop 3 tons on it. Does that mean it doesn't work? No. It will have specs as to impact resistance and deformity under load.

 

I do not have a habit of making demands on anyone and I am not bullying you. I am however arguing robustly and pointing out the flaws in your position. The only personal thing about that is that you make the original claim. Please do not assume robust argument is anything other than robust argument. You may find my tone strident. Frankly I am unconcerned. I am far more worried that someone might take your initial post as gospel and stop wearing earplugs. That reader might not read the rest of the thread where you either ignore questions, move goalposts or backtrack from your original post.

 

You are a moderator on a site where the members are often exposed to high volume levels. Claiming that a proven method of noise attenuation doesn't work, without caveat, is irresponsible. 

When I, and others - including your fellow moderators - have asked you to clarify what was said you have ignored those requests. Even the simple request from WoT "Did he tell you they literally don’t work?" you have ignored.

 

Perhaps you didn't see the post. Now I have drawn your attention to it. It is a simple question. If the "expert" literally said they don't work, then this would be an extraordinary claim that would require extraordinary evidence to over-turn decades of accepted medical advice. If the "expert" did not say it then you expose the inaccuracy of your Original Post. It must be one or the other. It is not unreasonable to expect you to answer such a simple question that is of great importance to anyone who gigs at volume.

 

Perhaps there was additional information. Perhaps the expert said "They literally don't work.... if you are using a road drill all day." That would be a very pertinent matter you neglected to mention and would massively change the applicability of the information in the Original Post.

 

As a moderator, presumably you would delete medical advice posted by others that was demonstrably harmful? Breaches of the Cancer Act for example? Claims that some home-made concoction can cure a condition? Some idiot claiming that a mash of herbs is a better choice than chemo? Are you not concerned that your Original Post might cause others to abandon ear plugs, thus leading them to harm? 

 

This is a forum of noise lovers. It's of interest to everybody here. I think that brings additional responsibilities as to the accuracy of what is passed on as an expert opinion about hearing protection.

 

 

 

 

 

TLDR

[wateroftyne]

Just now, Billy Apple said:

TLDR

I did, and it's worth it.

[Dankology]

5 minutes ago, Billy Apple said:

TLDR

I think that's exactly the point: put up a misleading attention-grabbing headline and it might work as clickbait (look at all those YouTube videos with titles like "why you should never buy a five-string" and "why all the pros only use a Precision bass").

But a good number of people remember only the headline - and with something like this and when it's hard enough to convince musicians to wear ear protection before it's too late, that requires a robust debate of the available evidence.

I'm not really sure what you were trying to achieve here. The debate you have generated seems worthwhile and educational but you seem to object to that. Did you really just want to put up a post titled "earplugs don't work" and hope everyone just nodded and chucked out their ear protection?

[Bolo]

A discussion was started, qualified professionals chimed in with valuable information. If one insists on discussing OPs manner of conduct I suggest one starts a new topic or take it to private messaging because it is making the contents of the topic that are actually quite interesting hard to read. Thanks.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Bolo

[EBS_freak]

 

[Billy Apple]

42 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I did, and it's worth it.

I'm at work and I'm being flippant because it's already been said. I honestly think the whole title thing is being overreacted. Get some proportion, it is an interesting debate and I was very surprised at the comments at the conference.

I'm a bass playing Harley rider who spends most of his time wearing ear protection of some sort or another. I'm also a specialist H&S advisor dealing with plant and lifting in major construction. This stuff is very important to me on many levels, but all you're bothered about is the headline.. Sheesh! Which one of you is going to pull the lever!? I'm not the BBC you know, just a bedroom hobbyist who thought some of you might be interested.

I just think the real agenda with this is that I lead from the front and have an opinion, so let's have the usual pop at Billy Apple instead of actually talking about the issue.

Oh yes... I'm a mod as well.. yawn.

[DoubleOhStephan]

37 minutes ago, Bolo said:

A discussion was started, qualified professionals chimed in with valuable information. If one insists on discussing OPs manner of conduct I suggest one starts a new topic or take it to private messaging because it is making the contents of the topic that are actually quite interesting hard to read. Thanks.

Thanks. 

I've been looking through various reports relating occlusion effect, bone conduction & ear plugs. It's a difficult one because the majority of research is into the benefits of ear protection (which is plentiful, positive and demonstrable) and its a technical subject which I have no experience or expertise in all, but there is some information which suggests an issue for certain musicians which they need to be aware of (and what measures can be taken to minimise risk).

My reading of it (and I welcome corrections or clarification) is that the occlusion effect (as described below) can be problematic under certain circumstances and can cause hearing damage (the tinnitus people are very interested in it) as well as infection caused by ear canal blockage. 

 

The occlusion effect occurs when an object fills the outer portion of a person's ear canal, and that person perceives "hollow" or "booming" echo-like sounds of their own voice. It is caused by bone-conducted sound vibrations reverberating off the object filling the ear canal.

[fretmeister]

You're a Health and Safety advisor and you don't think your OP is a problem?

 

I am speechless!

 

What next? Consultant Oncologist Smith says "Chemo doesn't work"

DCI Plod says "The Offences against the Person Act wasn't enacted properly so it doesn't apply"

Accountant Mr Jones says "Don't pay your taxes"

 

In those regulated positions such a statement would be enough to get the person in trouble with their regulatory body.

 

 

 

 

[skankdelvar]

1 hour ago, Billy Apple said:

TLDR

You didn't miss much. Basically 47,000 paragraphs of sententious tosh about issues of 'responsibility as a moderator' with a garnish of preposterous nitpicking.

You go, girl.

Quote

In those regulated positions such a statement would be enough to get the person in trouble with their regulatory body.

Nee-naw, nee-naw! It's literally the Literal Police. Bang him up!

Quote

I am speechless!

47,000 paragraphs indicate otherwise. Speechless would be an improvement.

Edited August 6, 2019 by skankdelvar

[wateroftyne]

21 minutes ago, Billy Apple said:

I'm at work and I'm being flippant because it's already been said. I honestly think the whole title thing is being overreacted. Get some proportion, it is an interesting debate and I was very surprised at the comments at the conference.

I'm a bass playing Harley rider who spends most of his time wearing ear protection of some sort or another. I'm also a specialist H&S advisor dealing with plant and lifting in major construction. This stuff is very important to me on many levels, but all you're bothered about is the headline.. Sheesh! Which one of you is going to pull the lever!? I'm not the BBC you know, just a bedroom hobbyist who thought some of you might be interested.

I just think the real agenda with this is that I lead from the front and have an opinion, so let's have the usual pop at Billy Apple instead of actually talking about the issue.

Oh yes... I'm a mod as well.. yawn.

I don't think your mod status has anything to do with it. I think it's because you posted something contentious and pulled the shutters down.

[cheddatom]

16 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said:

Thanks. 

I've been looking through various reports relating occlusion effect, bone conduction & ear plugs. It's a difficult one because the majority of research is into the benefits of ear protection (which is plentiful, positive and demonstrable) and its a technical subject which I have no experience or expertise in all, but there is some information which suggests an issue for certain musicians which they need to be aware of (and what measures can be taken to minimise risk).

My reading of it (and I welcome corrections or clarification) is that the occlusion effect (as described below) can be problematic under certain circumstances and can cause hearing damage (the tinnitus people are very interested in it) as well as infection caused by ear canal blockage. 

 

The occlusion effect occurs when an object fills the outer portion of a person's ear canal, and that person perceives "hollow" or "booming" echo-like sounds of their own voice. It is caused by bone-conducted sound vibrations reverberating off the object filling the ear canal.

I'm sure I get more of that effect when wearing ear defenders, as opposed to ear plugs. I love to wear ear defenders when playing drums, but there's one bassist I play with, who likes a very dubby sound, and if I wear my ear defenders it feels like my whole head is vibrating and makes me feel a bit queasy - similar to the feeling I get if I'm in a car doing over 50mph with only one window down, which I'm sure is a pressure related thing

[wateroftyne]

Just now, cheddatom said:

I'm sure I get more of that effect when wearing ear defenders, as opposed to ear plugs. I love to wear ear defenders when playing drums, but there's one bassist I play with, who likes a very dubby sound, and if I wear my ear defenders it feels like my whole head is vibrating and makes me feel a bit queasy - similar to the feeling I get if I'm in a car doing over 50mph with only one window down, which I'm sure is a pressure related thing

Yep - that's what I used to get with the off-the-shelf earplugs.. but not the custom-moulds because they fill the void, so-to-speak.

[cheddatom]

2 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

Yep - that's what I used to get with the off-the-shelf earplugs.. but not the custom-moulds because they fill the void, so-to-speak.

I'm saying I get that effect with ear defenders (industrial over ear headphones without speakers) but I don't get that effect with the standard disposable foam plugs.

[wateroftyne]

Just now, cheddatom said:

I'm saying I get that effect with ear defenders (industrial over ear headphones without speakers) but I don't get that effect with the standard disposable foam plugs.

..and I'm saying I get it with off-the-shelf, but not disposables. Just sharing my experience , that's all ;-)

[Billy Apple]

21 minutes ago, fretmeister said:

I am speechless!

Chance would be a fine thing.

[fretmeister]

Just now, Billy Apple said:

Chance would be a fine thing.

Just as much chance as you answering the questions asked of you. Questions that you definitely have the answer to but have decided not to answer.

 

[skankdelvar]

19 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I think it's because you posted something contentious

Yes, because none of us ever post something contentious which is founded on the implied understanding that it might be a generalisation. As for pulling the shutters down, well, who wouldn't when there's trouble in the air and women are hustling their children inside.

It seems pretty clear to me that Mr Apple threw one out there with a top dressing of hyperbole to which a few people took exception. Only a ghastly moron would actually think that earplugs are not to an extent beneficial and far from twisting myself into knots of patrician concern that such an individual might be misled into eschewing any form of hearing protection I would instead cheer the likelihood that Darwin's Law might take effect and our nation's average IQ be increased when the non-earplug wearer fails to hear an oncoming elephant and walks into its path with fatal consequences to himself. While recognising the distress that might be caused to the blameless pachyderm, obvs.

As one who likes to go on and on and on and on it ill behoves me, perhaps, to poke fun at others whose desire to shine exceeds their brevity. But it really is a bit much to ascribe the collapse of Western hearing to the title of a post intended in part - I suspect - to rouse debate and even more so to suggest that Mr Apple is manifestly delinquent in his resps as a custodian of the forum. I detect a large bee in a tiny bonnet.

In any event, I am now off to B&Q to effect the purchase of a rattle-can of black paint, the better to daub the bridges, overpasses and walls of Salisbury with the legend: "Billy Apple Is Innocent".

It is time to go old school and I will not rest until justice has been done. The forum can paste that in its collective hat.

Edited August 6, 2019 by skankdelvar

[Billy Apple]

13 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

I don't think your mod status has anything to do with it. I think it's because you posted something contentious and pulled the shutters down.

Because all I get is baited.

Why don't you go back and read my first two posts, then read Mikel's and your response to it and ask yourself why I wouldn't, and whether the response to my first post is justified?

[Billy Apple]

1 minute ago, fretmeister said:

Just as much chance as you answering the questions asked of you. Questions that you definitely have the answer to but have decided not to answer.

 

Because I don't care for you and do not dance to your tune.

This is old ground... move on.

[wateroftyne]

1 minute ago, skankdelvar said:

Yes, because none of us ever post something contentious which might - perhaps - be founded on the implied understanding that it might be a generalisation. As for pulling the shutters down, well, who wouldn't when there's trouble in the air and women are hustling their children inside.

It seems pretty clear to me that Mr Apple threw one out there with a top dressing of hyperbole to which a few people took exception. Only a ghastly moron would actually think that earplugs are not to an extent beneficial and far from twisting myself into knots of patrician concern that such an individual might be misled into eschewing any form of hearing I would instead cheer the likelihood that Darwin's Law might take effect and the average IQ be increased when the non-earplug wearer fails to hear an oncoming elephant and walks into its path with fatal consequences to himself. While recognising the distress that might be caused to the blameless pachyderm, obvs.

As one who likes to go on and on and on and on it ill behoves me, perhaps, to poke fun at others whose desire to shine exceeds their brevity. But it really is a bit much to ascribe the collapse of Western hearing to the title of a post intended in part - I suspect - to rouse debate and even more so to suggest that Mr Apple is manifestly delinquent in his resps as a custodian of the forum. I detect a large bee in a tiny bonnet.

In any event, I am now off to B&Q to effect the purchase of a rattle-can of black paint, the better to daub the bridges, overpasses and walls of Salisbury with the legend: "Billy Apple Is Innocent".

It is time to go old school and I will not rest until justice has been done. The forum can paste that in its collective hat.

To be fair, I just skimmed this, but at least I tried 🙂

What I personally was trying to get to the bottom of is this very clear statement in the OP:

I was talking to a specialist audiologist Doctor last week and he says ear plugs don’t work. 

..which I make no apologies for.

Just now, Billy Apple said:

Because all I get is baited.

Why don't you go back and read my first two posts, then read Mikel's and your response to it and ask yourself why I wouldn't, and whether the response to my first post is justified?

I would have appreciated replies to my posts, though.

[fretmeister]

1 minute ago, Billy Apple said:

Because I don't care for you and do not dance to your tune.

This is old ground... move on.

Do you care for the others that asked the questions?

Or do you not care for any of those who question you?

 

 

[Billy Apple]

OK, I'll change the title.

[cheddatom]

9 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

..and I'm saying I get it with off-the-shelf, but not disposables. Just sharing my experience , that's all 😉

Sorry, I thought you'd got me the wrong way round! That's very weird that we have the opposite experience. I wonder if it's to do with the shape of our ears?

I've been quite tempted by the custom moulded ones but I'm very prone to losing things, and I'm very used to the earplugs I use, so it seems more trouble than it's worth

[skankdelvar]

3 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

What I personally was trying to get to the bottom of is this very clear statement in the OP:

I was talking to a specialist audiologist Doctor last week and he says ear plugs don’t work. 

..which I make no apologies for.

No one's - well, certainly not me - is asking you to apologise.You have simply attempted to clarify certain matters and you have done so in a comparatively dispassionate way. Comparative when compared to other posters from whose posts the pearls spill in an excess of clutching.

Quote

I would have appreciated replies to my posts, though.

Well, I'd like to be six inches taller and play like Jerry Jemmot but we can't always get what we want 

[fretmeister]

New title "John Hall sez ear plugs don't work"

 

You used the name of someone known to be massively litigious? 

Strewth.