Do i need to learn all the scales?

[greghagger]

It may help to look at scales as just part of the bigger puzzle. Chord tones (i.e. from arpeggios) will give you a better framework for harmony. Of course scales will help you understand arpeggios, but like you say, running up and down scales will only get you so far. 

Look at the wider picture. Study harmony, look at 2-5-1’s and what players are doing over that sequence. Study walking bass lines. Transcribe solos........

Don’t get too focused on scales.....

that’s my advice anyway. 

Hope this helps!

if you want free video lessons, then have a look at my website:

gregsbassshed.com/videos

Of course one to one lessons are the best, but if you can’t do that, then learning online can be helpful. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8NuE6bwYMXZxRjl8tc1QXRjwAGYgk-bk

 

[wishface]

2 hours ago, greghagger said:

It may help to look at scales as just part of the bigger puzzle. Chord tones (i.e. from arpeggios) will give you a better framework for harmony. Of course scales will help you understand arpeggios, but like you say, running up and down scales will only get you so far. 

Look at the wider picture. Study harmony, look at 2-5-1’s and what players are doing over that sequence. Study walking bass lines. Transcribe solos........

Don’t get too focused on scales.....

that’s my advice anyway. 

Hope this helps!

if you want free video lessons, then have a look at my website:

gregsbassshed.com/videos

Of course one to one lessons are the best, but if you can’t do that, then learning online can be helpful. 

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8NuE6bwYMXZxRjl8tc1QXRjwAGYgk-bk

 

Transcribing is probably above my pay grade right now

I have some harmonic knowledge, but the problem with being self taught is not knowing how much you don't know.

I have an MI book on harmony. Do you have any preferred sources to learn from?

[greghagger]

You’ll get there, just try transcribing easy bass lines at first.  

To be honest, I have picked up music theory over years of playing a few different instruments. 

I have some videos on my channel that cover theory and these might be useful to you.

I also have an eBook caked The Bass Beginners Guide. This covers a load of theory including scales, arpeggios, key signatures, reading music, etc. right up to intermediate level. Here is the link if you want to have a look at that. PM me if you are interested, and I can give you a 30% discount code. 

https://gregsbassshed.com/beginners-guide

Let me know if you need any help or have other questions. Stick at it as it’s well worth learning music theory properly. 

[Guest]

Whatever you decide to do, make music . So if you find a scale you want to learn, for goodness’ sake make it interesting - learn the basic scale root to root to get it under your hands then take it outside your comfort zone - start it on a difference place on the neck, take fragments of it and relate it to something. The quickest way to give up is to just learn scales up and down and round the cycle of fourths - this is recommended a lot but in isolation is a boring and unmusical exercise. 

Of all the exercises I’ve seen the most rewarding is the continuous scale exercise from Mark Levine’s Jazz Theory book. The basic idea is to take a chord sequence, start on the lowest note on your bass that fits, then each time the chord changed, keep ascending, picking the next highest note that fits, until you get to the highest note on the bass, then descend back down. It’s pretty hard as it really makes you think, but you can start it off just over one octave instead of the whole range, it will quickly improve fingerboard and scale knowledge and it’s playing real music 

Having something to play along with - even if it’s just a recorded piano or guitar track, really helps as it gives it context.

[wishface]

3 hours ago, FDC484950 said:

Whatever you decide to do, make music . So if you find a scale you want to learn, for goodness’ sake make it interesting - learn the basic scale root to root to get it under your hands then take it outside your comfort zone - start it on a difference place on the neck, take fragments of it and relate it to something. The quickest way to give up is to just learn scales up and down and round the cycle of fourths - this is recommended a lot but in isolation is a boring and unmusical exercise. 

Of all the exercises I’ve seen the most rewarding is the continuous scale exercise from Mark Levine’s Jazz Theory book. The basic idea is to take a chord sequence, start on the lowest note on your bass that fits, then each time the chord changed, keep ascending, picking the next highest note that fits, until you get to the highest note on the bass, then descend back down. It’s pretty hard as it really makes you think, but you can start it off just over one octave instead of the whole range, it will quickly improve fingerboard and scale knowledge and it’s playing real music 

Having something to play along with - even if it’s just a recorded piano or guitar track, really helps as it gives it context.

Good advie, thanks. That's why I linked those two clips. They are musical. That's the sort of thing I'd like to know. 

Another example: the chords in reltively simpl songs like Breathe or Shine on by Pink Floyd. THere's always a few odd chords that seem to end a particular sequence. I've always sensed there's a reason why, posssibly based on blues theory (Gilmour is a bluesy guitarist), and I'd like to know it. Or a lot of Beatles stuff. 

[paul_c2]

Just now, wishface said:

 

Another example: the chords in reltively simpl songs like Breathe or Shine on by Pink Floyd. THere's always a few odd chords that seem to end a particular sequence. I've always sensed there's a reason why, posssibly based on blues theory (Gilmour is a bluesy guitarist), and I'd like to know it. Or a lot of Beatles stuff. 

Can you post the chord progression?

[wishface]

Gm

(Part II)  (Gilmour, Waters, Wright)

Gm  Dm  Cm  Gm  Dm  Cm  Dm  Gm

 

(Part III)  (Waters, Gilmour, Wright)

Gm  C  F  Gm  Eb  D  F  Gm

Gm  C  Gm  Eb  D  Gm

Gm/F#  Gm/F  Gm/E  Eb  D  Ebdim  D

 

(Part IV)  (Waters, Gilmour, Wright)

Gm  Cm  Gm  Eb  D  Eb  D7

 Gm  Cm  Gm  D7#9

Gm  Cm  Gm  Eb  D  Eb  D

Gm  Cm  Gm  D7#9

 

(the chords i'm interested in are the last part, right before the vox).

 

It's not dissimilar to what they do on Breathe from Dark Side (as everyone on earth knows)

[paul_c2]

So we have Gm, Cm and D (major or 7). This is a I-IV-V progression, very common in pop/rock.

The notes are:

G Bb D
C Eb G
D F# A

This screams "harmonic minor" and the F# really helps resolve back to the root, since it is a semitone away (rather than the F natural to G if it were natural minor). 

The use of an Eb chord in the progression reinforces its minor (Eb is the m6 of the G); and also the use of Eb-D is a strong chord change, since they have parallel movement in semitones (if it were a modulation, it is nicknamed "the truck driver's gear change", it is so obvious and unsubtle). Also the use of Eb-F-G is a distinctive sound because it is once again parallel movement, in whole tone step.

I'm not 100% sure the D7#9 is in the music, from listening to it. But if I take the above as correct, its an altered chord with both a major 3rd and minor 3rd (the #9 is the same as a b10 or m10), so it has a pleasing dissonance there and a distinctive sound; and it also creates an ambiguity in whether its clearly major or minor. In effect, it "softens" the strong resolution of D7 -> Gm and adds variety.

I'm sure others will analyse it completely differently!

[wishface]

That D chord is why I say it's bluesy because it sounds like a chromatic turnaround of some kind. So I had assumed it was a convention that came from that style of music. But the use of dominant chords is something the beatles do a lot. There's a principle at work here and it's things like taht I'm trying to learn. I know the chords individually and how to play them. It's putting them together. My musical roots are in more riff based music where this knind of knowledge is either not present or not relevant. Bands that just write great riffs and stick them altogether. 

[paul_c2]

Use of a V7 --> I is extremely common, I'd not particularly attribute it to the Beatles. Why is is common? Because, in "Western" music it creates a tension-resolution to the ears. The tension is due to the tritone in the 7th chord (between the 3rd and 7th of the chord). And the resolution, taking D7 -> G as an example, is because of both F# --> G and C --> B, semitone movements of the notes of the tritone in opposite directions, to the root's chord tones. In the minor the resolution isn't quite as strong but its still the strongest one available, and hence why its perceived as a resolution. 

Google "Perfect Cadence"

[Jimothey]

I’m still quite a noob but I’m trying to learn more theory I understand the 1-4-5 progression but that’s from learning the 12 bar blues and how to create a walking bass line around that progression and that you can add a 7th or use half or full steps or a chromatic step to get back to the root note but reading the last few posts I can’t get my head around it because I don’t understand it I’m finding it very difficult to learn I think I need to find some books and brush up for on my scales, modes and arpeggios to try and make sense of it all.............🤯

Edited August 12, 2019 by Jimothey

[Guest]

Apart from the song being in a minor key, the same applies to the 12-bar Blues you already know. V7-I, e.g. D7 to Gmaj (Or D7 to Gmin in a minor key) serves as tension and release. You can wrap a lot of theory around it but that’s all it is.

One chord has a grouping of notes that sounds unstable (D7 has F# and C, which form a tritone - or an interval between two notes that is three whole tones apart). The unstable part gets “resolved”, usually by moving up or down a semitone. So F# in D7 moves up one fret to G (root of Gmaj or minor) and C in D7 moves down one fret to B (3rd of Gmaj) or Bb (3rd of Gmin). 

You end up with a stable chord (Gmaj or Gmin), and on we go to the next verse/chorus etc.

[wishface]

Might as well ask this here, rather than start a new thread. A couple of theory questions:

What decides whether something is sharp or flat?

Why is it Ab and not G#?

Also, for example, if I'm playing in C and I play the F# (or is it Gb?), how do I know whether to call that an augmented fourth or a flattened sixth?

Thanks 

Edited August 18, 2019 by wishface

[paul_c2]

It depends what key you're in. Normally you try to preserve having 7 notes called different things, than repeating letters.

Simple example: say you're in the key of C

C D E F G A B C

but you introduce the note Bb, its Bb not A# because it makes more sense to then have:

C D E F G A Bb C

than 

C D E F G A A# C

 

That's why you sometimes end up with double flats and double sharps, rather than another way of writing that note. Of course, its not always possible to preserve the "one letter per different note" pattern, eg if something is chromatic. 

Similarly, the names of the intervals derive from the distance in the alphabet between the letters, as above.

[wishface]

3 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

It depends what key you're in. Normally you try to preserve having 7 notes called different things, than repeating letters.

Simple example: say you're in the key of C

C D E F G A B C

but you introduce the note Bb, its Bb not A# because it makes more sense to then have:

C D E F G A Bb C

than 

C D E F G A A# C

 

That's why you sometimes end up with double flats and double sharps, rather than another way of writing that note. Of course, its not always possible to preserve the "one letter per different note" pattern, eg if something is chromatic. 

Similarly, the names of the intervals derive from the distance in the alphabet between the letters, as above.

Does that mean in the key of C, where you don't have F#, an aug 4th must always be a flat 5th (Gb)?

[paul_c2]

No, it would depend on context. What context is your F#/Gb occurring in the music (in the key of C)?

Another thing, there is no rigid "rule" about what note is called what. Yes you'd try to keep it so even when something modulates (to another key), there's still 7 letters for 7 notes, but its only really a guideline. The reason you'd do this is to simplify things for anyone who is reading the music (if you're just listening.....it doesn't really matter what the note is called, it could be called Zebedee for all you care!). And if you think about standard notation, the notehead is on a different line/space for each different note.

[paul_c2]

Another example of when you're trying to simplify things.....say you had a piece in C which had an Eb. Its probably serving as a b3 at some point (a very normal, bluesy thing to do....or a temporary change to minor, etc etc) but EVEN IF AN E NATURAL occured, you'd probably choose to notate it as Eb than D#. The reason being, for someone reading the music, it would be a fairly unusual thing to see a D#, while Eb would cause less surprise. Of course, D# is possible, but rarer. So SIMPLY TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ you'd choose to notate as Eb most times. It might be a #9 chord though, ie C E G Bb D#, in that case you'd notate as D# to avoid having two Es of different flavours in the written music. Even if that E natural occurred in a different part, eg a trumpet section of 4 parts.

[wishface]

1 hour ago, paul_c2 said:

Another example of when you're trying to simplify things.....say you had a piece in C which had an Eb. Its probably serving as a b3 at some point (a very normal, bluesy thing to do....or a temporary change to minor, etc etc) but EVEN IF AN E NATURAL occured, you'd probably choose to notate it as Eb than D#. The reason being, for someone reading the music, it would be a fairly unusual thing to see a D#, while Eb would cause less surprise. Of course, D# is possible, but rarer. So SIMPLY TO MAKE IT EASIER TO READ you'd choose to notate as Eb most times. It might be a #9 chord though, ie C E G Bb D#, in that case you'd notate as D# to avoid having two Es of different flavours in the written music. Even if that E natural occurred in a different part, eg a trumpet section of 4 parts.

So there isn't a specific mechanical reason why something is flat five not aug fourth, for instance? it's just the convention of presenting the written page and keeping it consistent and simple?

[paul_c2]

There's reasons why something is b5 and there's reasons why something is #4 (and there's reasons why its neither, or it doesn't really matter what its written as).

I can't tell which one it is, unless you give the context.

[wishface]

4 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

There's reasons why something is b5 and there's reasons why something is #4 (and there's reasons why its neither, or it doesn't really matter what its written as).

I can't tell which one it is, unless you give the context.

That's the problem, I don't understand what that context could be.

THanks anyway

[paul_c2]

Its not complicated. If a chord is a dominant 7th, it will have a tritone in it. It will be a  b5 because chords are (conventionally) stacked 3rds. That's the obvious example.

And the other obvious example is if a chord is a #11, then it will have both a 5th (a normal one - a perfect 5th) and a #4 (expressed as #11 because its stacked thirds, and because its normally voiced with the #11 that distance from the root, not crunched right next to the 5th).

And the obvious example of when its neither is a chromatic scale or even just when its a passing note between the 4th and 5th (or vice versa).

[wishface]

6 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

Its not complicated. If a chord is a dominant 7th, it will have a tritone in it. It will be a  b5 because chords are (conventionally) stacked 3rds. That's the obvious example.

And the other obvious example is if a chord is a #11, then it will have both a 5th (a normal one - a perfect 5th) and a #4 (expressed as #11 because its stacked thirds, and because its normally voiced with the #11 that distance from the root, not crunched right next to the 5th).

And the obvious example of when its neither is a chromatic scale or even just when its a passing note between the 4th and 5th (or vice versa).

Thanks for the replies but I'm still not really clear as to why it's one not the other.

[paul_c2]

It still depends on the context. You've not really told us anything more except the music is in the key of C, then an F# or Gb randomly appears. Context means - what are the other notes (before, after and during)? What are the other instruments (including vocals) doing?