How well can guitarists read?

[Nicko]

34 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

There is no root either - the chord is D7 (no root or 5th) sliding up to Eb7 (no root or 5th)

In that case you might think its a D7 but it's only a D7 when the rest of the band are playing surely?

[nige1968]

Our guitarist can't read a birthday card without mouthing along with the words

[paul_c2]

1 hour ago, Nicko said:

In that case you might think its a D7 but it's only a D7 when the rest of the band are playing surely?

Simple answer: yes.

More involved answer: I don't know if its the correct term, but there is a thing I call "rootless voicing/chord substitution". For example, I, with my guitarist hat on, sees Cmaj7 on the chord chart and play Em. If you heard the guitar in isolation, it would sound like the tonal centre is E. But if my friend on the bass plays a big fat C, then it sounds like the tonal centre is C and that the flavour of chord is major 7.

That's one example - you can see how it extends to 9th and 11th (and beyond if you want) chords quite easily. After all they are stacked 3rds.

The other one is 6th chords. If guitarist sees (for example) C6, he can play a 7th chord of whatever the 6th is. The 6th of C is A and the chord will be Am7 (because that contains the right notes, and the same notes as C6).

[DJpullchord]

I’m a guitarist and can read that, although not instantly.

 

Why not take the time to explain to your guitarer how it all works? You may open up his/her musical world a little more.

[lowdown]

What a strange thread, tearing Guitarists a new one?

 

I think there are three Guitar parts on Car Wash during the chorus' and verses. The intro has a couple of tracks playing Wah-Wah lines and  another playing the high stops.

Possibly the main line that the OP is talking about is just double stops. Root + Minor third, then Root + Major third.

That part is panned on the left hand side, then there is a part panned on the right hand side and there might be another one in the middle, unless that is a Rhodes or whatever.

(That OP chord consisting of Flat 7th/Major 3rd/Octave Flat 7th sounds odd to me.

Maybe a reading Guitarist will pop in, who plays the tune and tell us the right notes...😁

 

 

Original Key below...I have snipped from the wrong point in the score - Bar 3&4 should be 1&2 and Bar 1&2 should be 3&4...

(Minus the slurs and articulations).

This is from an old score. Actually the full score, with the full Orchestration. 

 

 

Edited August 13, 2019 by lowdown

[Maude]

How well can bassists read? 

Me? Not at all. 

[peteb]

12 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

I almost did this as a poll. How well can guitarists read? And if not, how on earth do you communicate (musical ideas) to them? For example, here is a little extract from something I'm working on. Its a repeating pattern. The whole piece, almost, is based on one chord, so there's not much variety, I think there's this little riff and two others for them to play. Would you expect a guitarist to "get" this in:

A) about 4 seconds (ie, they can sight read so long as they look ahead a little)
B) about 30 seconds (ie you could hand it to them, they could look at it then play it once prepared)
C) about 1 week (you give it to them one week, they come back next week having prepared it)
D) never

 

Surely the answer to this is that it depends on the gig. I've been playing live for over 40 years and I have yet to see anyone produce a music score in a band situation, even when playing with guys who are capable sight readers. 

I have never found communicating musical ideas without using music notation to be a problem.when dealing with decent guitar player players.

Edited August 14, 2019 by peteb

[musicbassman]

7 hours ago, peteb said:

Surely the answer to this is that it depends on the gig. I've been playing live for over 40 years and I have yet to see anyone produce a music score in a band situation, even when playing with guys who are capable sight readers. 

This absolutely. Apart from a period in the '80's when a band I was in used to back cabaret acts fairly often, I have never ever seen any sheet music on stage, keyboard players excepted.

- and this is why classical musicians who are used to having dots in front of them are notoriously bad at playing pop or rock.

....other opinions are available.

 

[Nicko]

7 hours ago, peteb said:

I have never found communicating musical ideas without using music notation to be a problem.when dealing with decent guitar player players.

Depends on the guitar player. 

I took guitar lessons with the RGT some years back, and their grading system was endorsed by LCM, regulated by Ofqual etc.  I studied their rock guitar course and it did not require any reading of sheet music, but but did require reading of tab.  It was a long time ago so don't know if this is still the case.

Its therefore quite possible to be a competent player with good theory knowledge and not read music.  After all, most guitarists are not ever required to read dots. 

FWIW I only went as far as grade 5 so I dont necessarily consider myself competetnt.

[mikel]

15 hours ago, paul_c2 said:

Simple answer: yes.

More involved answer: I don't know if its the correct term, but there is a thing I call "rootless voicing/chord substitution". For example, I, with my guitarist hat on, sees Cmaj7 on the chord chart and play Em. If you heard the guitar in isolation, it would sound like the tonal centre is E. But if my friend on the bass plays a big fat C, then it sounds like the tonal centre is C and that the flavour of chord is major 7.

That's one example - you can see how it extends to 9th and 11th (and beyond if you want) chords quite easily. After all they are stacked 3rds.

The other one is 6th chords. If guitarist sees (for example) C6, he can play a 7th chord of whatever the 6th is. The 6th of C is A and the chord will be Am7 (because that contains the right notes, and the same notes as C6).

You see what happens though, you simply end up arguing minutia and musical theory.  If it sounds good then it is good. If a musician cant play along with others, and pick up a song as they go then that is another thread altogether. 

[peteb]

3 hours ago, Nicko said:

Depends on the guitar player. 

I took guitar lessons with the RGT some years back, and their grading system was endorsed by LCM, regulated by Ofqual etc.  I studied their rock guitar course and it did not require any reading of sheet music, but but did require reading of tab.  It was a long time ago so don't know if this is still the case.

Its therefore quite possible to be a competent player with good theory knowledge and not read music.  After all, most guitarists are not ever required to read dots. 

FWIW I only went as far as grade 5 so I dont necessarily consider myself competetnt.

I should just point out that the vast majority of guitar players I have played with have never had any formal training (like myself). Of course that doesn't mean that they don't know scales, modes, etc or don't have a working knowledge of harmony.