Trace Elliot watts

[TimR]

4 minutes ago, hooky_lowdown said:

 

Something which may have been overlooked is that the more speaker surface area, the louder also. A 410 vs 115 using the same amp and ohms, the 410 will be far louder.

 

Not quite true. There’s a whole host of parameters that affect volume, not just surface area. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters

[hooky_lowdown]

1 minute ago, TimR said:

Not quite true. There’s a whole host of parameters that affect volume, not just surface area. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiele/Small_parameters

If it's on wiki.... must be true.

Think you may have missed my point. Different speakers do have different efficiencies, and a 115 with a very efficient speaker can be louder than a 410 with average speakers. If using the same brand/model of speakers, and using the exact same amp head and all things being equal, a 410 will be louder than a 115.

[TimR]

5 minutes ago, hooky_lowdown said:

If it's on wiki.... must be true.

Think you may have missed my point. Different speakers do have different efficiencies, and a 115 with a very efficient speaker can be louder than a 410 with average speakers. If using the same brand/model of speakers, and using the exact same amp head and all things being equal, a 410 will be louder than a 115.

Other references are available, Wiki was just the top google result. 

The 10s will not have the same excursion as the 15, and will also have a different frequency response, even if they are the same manufacturer.

Often the ‘louder’ is due to the cab  having a different frequency response and will be affected by coupling of the 4 speakers. 

Edited August 26, 2019 by TimR

[hooky_lowdown]

6 minutes ago, TimR said:

Other references are available, Wiki was just the top google result. 

The 10s will not have the same excursion as the 15, and will also have a different frequency response, even if they are the same manufacturer.

Often the ‘louder’ is due to the cab  having a different frequency response and will be affected by coupling of the 4 speakers. 

Everytime I've used a 410 or 810 over a 115 or two 115's, using the same amp head, and same brand of cabs, same bass, the 410s have always been much louder.

I understand what you are saying, in theory a watt is a watt (as discussed in this thread) and different frequency responses, but in reality, for me at least, more surface area equals louder. Room size withstanding.

[TimR]

24 minutes ago, hooky_lowdown said:

more surface area equals louder.

As I say, that may be the case, but it’s not because of the area.

Some good references here on both speaker and amplifier myths. 

https://barefacedbass.com/technical-information.htm

[hooky_lowdown]

5 minutes ago, TimR said:

but it’s not because of the area.

The area was the only difference.

[stewblack]

To any newcomers wondering what the hell we're all banging on about, a company who made bass amps used to write on a label how many Watts the amp was rated at. 

Musicians used this as a guide as to how loud their bass would sound through different amps, the assumption being that more watts meant louder bass. 

This particular company confused people by writing a lower number than others would. For example where most manufacturers would write 250w this company wrote 130w. 

Musicians were therefore astonished to be told that the bass amp they'd been listening to at a gig was 'only' 130 Watts.  But but it was sooo loud they would splutter. 

Now, decades later, with the facility the Internet offers for endless debate we are all choosing sides and arguing about this fairly straightforward, and historic state of affairs. 

Hope this helps. 

[TimR]

1 hour ago, hooky_lowdown said:

The area was the only difference.

It’s not. The volume of the cab is different, the poring is different, the rating of the individual speakers is different, the xMax is different, the resonant frequency of the drivers is different. 

[hooky_lowdown]

2 hours ago, TimR said:

It’s not. The volume of the cab is different, the poring is different, the rating of the individual speakers is different, the xMax is different, the resonant frequency of the drivers is different. 

Have you tried/tested the same amp head and bass through a 410 and a 115, if so which was louder for you?

[Stub Mandrel]

The problem is a simple one. Volume is the result of a whole host of factors of which power is only one.

Amplifier power

Amplifier transient response

Line voltage

Amplifier power supply

Amplifier design

Amplifier linearity

Frequency response of the human ear

Frequency response of the input

Input impedance matching

Frequency response of the amplifier (several parameters)

Preamplifier settings

Output impedance matching

Positioning of the speakers

Speaker driver parameters (several)

Speaker enclosure parameters (several) and design

Expectations of the user

The listening room (many parameters)

Listening position

Absence of other sound sources or if present their nature

And no doubt many more.

 

It's kind of like comparing people's ability at sports just on the basis of the amount of calories they eat... any comparison is only remotely valid if you start with 'all other things being equal..."

 

[TimR]

1 hour ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Have you tried/tested the same amp head and bass through a 410 and a 115, if so which was louder for you?

No. Because it’s impossible. 

eg the Warwick WCA 410 is 4ohms and 400W and measures 66 x 67 x 48 cm while the 115 is 8ohms and 300W and measures 53 x 57 x 50 cm.

The sensitivity is completely different 410 is 107dB and the 115 97dB.

Two entirely different cabs. Impossible to compare.

 

[hooky_lowdown]

53 minutes ago, TimR said:

No. Because it’s impossible. 

eg the Warwick WCA 410 is 4ohms and 400W and measures 66 x 67 x 48 cm while the 115 is 8ohms and 300W and measures 53 x 57 x 50 cm.

The sensitivity is completely different 410 is 107dB and the 115 97dB.

Two entirely different cabs. Impossible to compare.

 

I wasn't asking you to compare from a theoretical perspective, I was simply asking if you have real world experience using 410's and 115's side-by-side, which one was louder to you?

[TimR]

@hooky_lowdown the 4x10 will be able to go louder due to the design specs of the drivers and cabinet, not least as it’s a 4ohm cab, but certainly not because of the surface area of the speakers. 

[hooky_lowdown]

8 minutes ago, TimR said:

@hooky_lowdown the 4x10 will be able to go louder due to the design specs of the drivers and cabinet, not least as it’s a 4ohm cab, but certainly not because of the surface area of the speakers. 

Blimey, it's like getting blood from a stone. 

So a 410 is louder than a 115. 

The more surface area the more air being pushed. I believe that's physics.

[TimR]

16 minutes ago, hooky_lowdown said:

surface area the more air being pushed

Nope. Ive tried to explain. I’ve given you two links. I’ve quoted specs from two cabs. 

Have a read of them and try and understand. Otherwise you’re simply just perpetuating one of the myths of speaker cabinets.

[hooky_lowdown]

38 minutes ago, TimR said:

Nope. Ive tried to explain. I’ve given you two links. I’ve quoted specs from two cabs. 

Have a read of them and try and understand. Otherwise you’re simply just perpetuating one of the myths of speaker cabinets.

You seem focused on the surface area, I'm not interested in any of the mechanics or any other (of the many) variables which contribute to cab efficiency.

My point is a 410 is louder than a 115 with all things equal.

[Stub Mandrel]

50 minutes ago, TimR said:

Nope. Ive tried to explain. I’ve given you two links. I’ve quoted specs from two cabs. 

Have a read of them and try and understand. Otherwise you’re simply just perpetuating one of the myths of speaker cabinets.

"Adding an identical and mutually coupled speaker driver (much less than a wavelength away from each other) and splitting the electrical power equally between the two drivers increases their combined efficiency by a maximum of 3 dB, similar to increasing the size of a single driver until the diaphragm area doubles. Multiple drivers can be more practical to increase efficiency than larger drivers since frequency response is generally proportional to driver size. "

 

4x10" speakers have 1.78 times the area of a 15" speaker.

That's a ratio of about log 10 1.78 is 0.25, so ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL the 4X10 will be 2.5 decibels louder.

 

[hooky_lowdown]

58 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

4x10" speakers have 1.78 times the area of a 15" speaker.

That's a ratio of about log 10 1.78 is 0.25, so ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL the 4X10 will be 2.5 decibels louder.

Yes, but is that 2.5 Trace decibels? 😉

[LukeFRC]

who plays theoretical cabs though? 

[TimR]

Just now, LukeFRC said:

who plays theoretical cabs though? 

Quite. No other things are equal.

A 10” speaker isn’t just a smaller 15” speaker.

[TimR]

2 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

You seem focused on the surface area, I'm not interested in any of the mechanics or any other (of the many) variables which contribute to cab efficiency.

 

9 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

9 hours ago, TimR said:

 

The area was the only difference

I’m lost now. 

[wateroftyne]

5 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

I’m lost now. 

https://what3words.com/products/what3words-app/

 

[hooky_lowdown]

16 minutes ago, TimR said:

 

I’m lost now. 

The very first post of our dialogue I said a 410 is louder than a 115. 

I'm not sure why you are lost.

[TimR]

20 hours ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Something which may have been overlooked is that the more speaker surface area, the louder also. A 410 vs 115 using the same amp and ohms, the 410 will be far louder.

 

[Phil Starr]

Hi Tim, I'll have a go.

First the phrase 'all other things being equal' is one used regularly by scientists when explaining technical issues. The whole basis of science is about controlling variables in experiments so that only one thing is varied at a time and any measured differences must be down to that change alone. Of course we know that other variables happen, but to understand what is going on we have to isolate them and deal with them one at a time.

In this case the simplest thing is to try one two and four identical speakers with small signal levels (so nothing overloads and the speaker coil stays inside the magnet). I've demonstrated this to people and once built a special cab to do the demonstration. Putting two cabs in parallel you'd expect an extra 3dB as they will each draw the same power from the amp (in this case doubling the power into 4ohms) but you measure 6dB extra. That sounds like magic, a perpetual motion machine etc but the explanation is simple. When the cone moves it doesn't turn all that energy into sound, in fact most of the energy is dissipated as heat and speakers typically operate at single digit efficiencies. Doubling the cone area gives you 3dB worth of extra efficiency. (all other things being equal )

In this case very roughly two 10's have a similar area to a 15, so a fairer comparison would be between a 4x10 and a 2x15 which should have similar efficiencies. If they don't then you know all other things aren't equal and you can ask the question; why not?