Can't get Enough

[Dan Dare]

On ‎15‎/‎08‎/‎2019 at 17:19, steantval said:

Been playing this song for many years, just dropped it from our current set, it always goes down well.

A previous band I was in wanted to do it, but a step and a half down to suit the singer, I put my foot down and refused to do it in that key with a four string bass.

 

Bad form, imho. The band should always accommodate the singer. If someone's voice works best in a certain key, that's the key the band should play it in. The two most important members of any band are the singer and the drummer. If they're delivering, everything else will be right (assuming competence on the part of the rest of the band, of course). I know we might not like to acknowledge it, but it's the troof.

[steantval]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

Bad form, imho. The band should always accommodate the singer. If someone's voice works best in a certain key, that's the key the band should play it in. The two most important members of any band are the singer and the drummer. If they're delivering, everything else will be right (assuming competence on the part of the rest of the band, of course). I know we might not like to acknowledge it, but it's the troof.

What would you suggest, I purchased a five string just for one song or played it an octave higher and it would sound crap.🤔

Most of the verses are around the first and third frets, drop it down a tone and a half and it goes off the end of the neck 😤

That band was the only band I have ever played in where a load of the songs had to be played in a different key, I must have been very lucky with previous and my current band where the vocalists are of a high quality and every song is played in the original recorded key barring a couple of Lizzy songs that are usually moved by a semitone.

Edited August 17, 2019 by steantval

[peteb]

11 hours ago, steantval said:

What would you suggest, I purchased a five string just for one song or played it an octave higher and it would sound crap.🤔

It's one thing changing keys to accommodate singers, but there is a line you have draw. If they want to change the key that drastically it means that they just can't do it! Not to mention that there are many signature guitar parts that are important to performing certain songs that can only be played in a particular key... 

Edited August 18, 2019 by peteb

[Phil Starr]

I have to say I love playing this. It's both a nice one to relax to and just enjoy the ride, and the audience reaction but it also has places you can put a bit extra in if you fancy it. There seem to be dozens of versions over the years with a gradual change from a very pronounced shuffle towards four to the floor. It also seems to show up most of the guitarists I've played with who can never seem to remember the repeats of the opening riff when they recur or how to end the song

As for changing keys. I do not for the life of me understand why singers don't demand it more often. They can't all have the same natural range as the original singer, surely they ought to sing it in the key where they sound best. It seems to be more about the crossover points in their voices, between head and chest voices and so on. If the dramatic part of the song or some fast articulation occurs when their voice is weakest a semitone or tone can really beef up the song. So many singers can't seem to 'hear' the song in anything but the original key. It's all compromise of course; I'd struggle with All Right Now if I didn't have an open string to play in the octave jump and I'm usually happy when the guitarist asks to play E rather than Eb in a few songs. In the end though if the singer is straining for a note or pitchy the whole band sound crap so why wouldn't you play to suit the voice they have?

 

[peteb]

2 hours ago, Phil Starr said:

As for changing keys. I do not for the life of me understand why singers don't demand it more often. They can't all have the same natural range as the original singer, surely they ought to sing it in the key where they sound best. It seems to be more about the crossover points in their voices, between head and chest voices and so on. If the dramatic part of the song or some fast articulation occurs when their voice is weakest a semitone or tone can really beef up the song. So many singers can't seem to 'hear' the song in anything but the original key. It's all compromise of course; I'd struggle with All Right Now if I didn't have an open string to play in the octave jump and I'm usually happy when the guitarist asks to play E rather than Eb in a few songs. In the end though if the singer is straining for a note or pitchy the whole band sound crap so why wouldn't you play to suit the voice they have?

  

The thing is that you can’t physically play the guitar riff for Alright Now without the open strings. I think that you would agree that the main riff is rather an important part of the song?? There’s a reason why many old bands that recorded their biggest hits in concert pitch are now playing live tuned down a half step, or often more.

I once played in a band with a (female) singer who tried to do a Beth Hart song, but kept wanting to change the key (original in C). In the end she had tried five different versions, each time a further half step down. I pulled the plug at G# and said that it wasn’t going to work and to look for an alternative.

Sometimes you have to accept that a singer can’t pull off a particular song and play something that they can sing instead…

[steantval]

Its like Brian Adams, Run To You, the guitar intro needs to be done in the original key otherwise it won’t work.

There are some songs you just cannot transpose into different keys.

Edited August 18, 2019 by steantval

[Stub Mandrel]

It's cruel to say it, but...  think most singers would benefit from a dozen singing lessons which would extended and even out their range. It's amazing what singing lessons can do...

[steantval]

21 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It's cruel to say it, but...  think most singers would benefit from a dozen singing lessons which would extended and even out their range. It's amazing what singing lessons can do...

Bang on there, our vocalist had professional lessons, rock stuff is pretty easy for him, he can also do opera, often does a bit of it when warming up.

[DoubleOhStephan]

27 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It's cruel to say it, but...  think most singers would benefit from a dozen singing lessons which would extended and even out their range. It's amazing what singing lessons can do...

I don't think that's cruel at all. Everyone in every field can benefit from the experience of other, more experienced people. 

[Stub Mandrel]

I'd love to have a go at singing, but I can't play and sing at the same time and I don't want to give up bass.

[skankdelvar]

20 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I'd love to have a go at singing, but I can't play and sing at the same time and I don't want to give up bass.

Have some lessons. Learn some lyrics. Start a sideline band. Tell the bass player what notes he should play. Get slagged off here. Revel in the irony.

Edited August 18, 2019 by skankdelvar

[Dan Dare]

20 hours ago, steantval said:

What would you suggest, I purchased a five string just for one song or played it an octave higher and it would sound crap.🤔

Most of the verses are around the first and third frets, drop it down a tone and a half and it goes off the end of the neck 😤

 

No. You just have to play the notes that are below your low E up an octave. It works fine. You don't have to play the whole part up an octave. People are all different - their voices do not all function best in the same key(s). Phil Starr sums it up very well above. I repeat - if the singer is struggling, a song will not sound good, no matter how well the rest of the band plays it. As musicians, we are there to support the singer and the song, not to indulge ourselves or show how clever we are. And if you do pro work, you had better be ready to play a piece in the key required, not the one you think it should be in.

I'll give an example. A band I used to play in did 'Grapevine'. Our singer, who was (and still is) very good, could not manage it in the original key. It was just too high for him, so we dropped it to one that was comfortable for him. He was in his fifties. Marvin Gaye was the best part of 30 years younger than that when he recorded the song and we lose our upper register as we age.

The guitar player kicked up a terrible fuss about it. The real issue was that he didn't want to learn it in a different key. He would rather the song had sounded poor than make an effort. A bit pathetic, really.

[steantval]

Agree with your bit about the vocalist, sort of.

With our current band the vocalist chooses the majority of our songs, he knows if he can sing them in the original keys.

If any of the rest of us in the band want to do a song, we send it to him first, he will initially try it out, if he is certain he can perform it in the original key, it gets his approval and the rest of the band can start learning it.

We have yet to choose a song that is out of his range, if he cannot do it in the original key he has no interest in doing it anyway.

Edited August 18, 2019 by steantval

[casapete]

I was once in a band where the singer would try the keys out at home, then say they needed dropping a tone or so. Of course at a rehearsal / gig he could actually reach the notes in the original key, so these came to be known as ‘front room’ efforts. Same goes for sitting / standing keys too....😄

[ezbass]

7 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

It's cruel to say it, but...  think most singers would benefit from a dozen singing lessons which would extended and even out their range. It's amazing what singing lessons can do...

My singer also teaches. We do everything in the original keys. She’s given me some great tips on technique, now I’m confident enough to sing the occasional lead.

[Stub Mandrel]

Rats.

This has got me singing along to Paul Robeson, I was doing OK until I found a song where he goes down to C2. I can get to F#2 fine, push to F2 and just to E2 then I start dribbling...

[Dan Dare]

13 hours ago, Stub Mandrel said:

Rats.

This has got me singing along to Paul Robeson, I was doing OK until I found a song where he goes down to C2. I can get to F#2 fine, push to F2 and just to E2 then I start dribbling...

Exactly. Taking Lessons and learning technique will take us so far, but we still need the physical attributes that people like Robeson (a great man) had/have. You are either born with those or you aren't.

[Stub Mandrel]

1 hour ago, Dan Dare said:

Exactly. Taking Lessons and learning technique will take us so far, but we still need the physical attributes that people like Robeson (a great man) had/have. You are either born with those or you aren't.

Yes, but lessons considerably expanded the usable range of my voice. I hear 'it doesn't sound good' more often than 'my voice doesn't go there', lessons can help with that (and warming up can too! - I start a practice session by playing scales and speeding up as my fingers get into it, how many singers do that?)

Ouch, found a real time pitch tester app....

Edited August 19, 2019 by Stub Mandrel

[leschirons]

On 15/08/2019 at 19:28, NJE said:

Man I feel so lazy after reading this thread. Our guitarist wanted to play it one practice and knew the song to the extent I could hum most of it, so I just took the roots notes and stuck in a few walking bits and little runs and away we go... I don’t think I have ever listened to the original all the way through 😬.

I genuinely admire you dedication to get it spot on, I would do the same for other songs but this with load drums and distorted guitar I figured  no one would ever be able to hear if I was playing it record correct or not.

Me too. Played this for years and don't think I ever listened to what was actually really going on. It's very easy to busk and no-one ever pulled me up about it.

Play what feels good and right for you.