Harmoniser, Pitch Shifter, Octaver?

[stewblack]

Hello bass hive mind, hope the synapses are firing. 

I would like to produce a couple of notes simultaneously with my bass note. Specifically an octave up and a fifth above that. 

I've spent a few days with Google and YouTube and understand the mechanics involved  What I could use now is real world bass experience. 

Some cheaper harmoniser pedals seem to produce OK results but with a little latency - could that be a good thing if simulating a rhythm guitar? Providing a small separation from the bass might encourage the illusion of separate instruments. Or would it just make it a nightmare to play and sound horrible?

Is it best to go up an octave and then harmonise or use an all in one like the Bass Whammy? Or is there something better? 

I can't afford the Hog2 by the way. If I could I'd already have it! The Boss harmoniser appears a little fussy for live use, unless it has a more simple functionality I've overlooked. 

What about vocal harmonisers? Any good for instruments? 

TC Quintessence looks like a good price, but how good do the notes sound clean? Mild distortion would work but this isn't for punk or metal. 

If I can pull this off we won't be hiring a rhythm guitarist who we'd then need to pay. More importantly we have a wonderful balance of personalities in the band which is, in my experience, of absolutely paramount importance. Add a stranger to the mix and we risk derailing the entire project.

I won't be using this extra musical padding throughout the set, just on certain more stomping tunes and as support during some solos. 

The band are sceptical, having no experience of this approach. Personally I don't think we need anything additional to the bass, keys drums we have. But they lack my confidence. Hopefully they will be pleasantly surprised. 

 

Edited August 30, 2019 by stewblack

[itu]

My limited view to vocal harmonizers is that if your keyboard player offers you MIDI signal, you can do nearly anything. If not, beware.

Most of the octave up -pedals have somewhat strange sound, something that relates to old ghost movies. Maybe some other effect like distortion would enhance the sound. Octave down is an easier task. Just buy nearly any octaver and you're in.

Digital units have always some sort of delay, but this very much depends on the unit. I recently received an IE FMeron and its latency is negligible, if possible. Some other units have far longer and sometimes somewhat annoying delays. No, I am not able to buy an Eventide Harmonizer, neither was Jaco. He simply lent one. They do not loan one for me, though.

One thing is to remember: whenever I play with a harmonizer/octaver/something similar, the performance very much depends on my abilities to play very clean voices. Cutting treble helps the unit to track better and a compressor may help, too. But my own technique is the most critical. Any hassle with fingerings and ringing tones are poison to the electronics, no matter analog or digital.

[bobbass4k]

I'd say have a look at the earthquaker pitch bay, not sure of your budget but it'll do simultaneous harmonies totally clean,with the option of adding gain on board. The only compromise you'd have to make is it only does 1 up and 1 down harmony, so you'd have to play the fifth in the chord you want to play and set it to a fifth below and a fourth above.

[dannybuoy]

The Whammy can only add the otctave or the 5th, not both at once. I’ve used a Mooer Tender Octave (MicroPOG clone) into a Whammy with good results. The Bass Whammy setting 5th up / 4th down works well since they’re the same note an octave apart, and you can slide between them with the pedal.

The only other small pedal I know that can do an octave up plus a 5th is the T-Rex Quint Machine.

I don’t think any of them sound very natural clean though, but you can get away with adding distortion to mask it!

Edited August 31, 2019 by dannybuoy

[AlphaK]

I'd probably be aiming to get there with two pedals rather than one. Two reasonably priced pedals that come to mind are the EHX Pitchfork plus the TC Sub'n'Up which both have polyphonic capability.

I see on another thread that you have a EHX Tri Parallel mixer - seems like that could come into play very nicely for this! 

The non-pedal route would be either a Bass VI or possible playing chordal patterns on an 8-string like the Schecter Stiletto 8 or the Spector Legend 8.

[Daz39]

Fission pedal by erm erm. That does a fifth and octave and distortion.

[stewblack]

Thanks folks. I have produced a very passable imitation of what I'm after with the humble Zoom B10n and American Sounds pedals so I suspect that a couple of decent upgrades on those will get me what I want.

[dannybuoy]

BTW, I found it sounded better to just play the added 5th on the bass rather than use a 2nd pedal to fake it. It ended up simplifying the setup a lot!

[stewblack]

2 hours ago, dannybuoy said:

BTW, I found it sounded better to just play the added 5th on the bass rather than use a 2nd pedal to fake it. It ended up simplifying the setup a lot!

That's an interesting idea too, thank you 

[Al Krow]

If you're prepared to play a couple of notes on bass or even chords, just add a polyphonic octave up (Digitech Mosaic is my fav, virtually no latency) and you're good to go! 

[dannybuoy]

The Mosaic can't solo the octave up however, which might be important if using it in a parallel setup to generate a fake guitar sound.

I think the algorithm is the same as used in the Whammy range though, just minus the tone control. The Ricochet is fun as an octave up as you can put it in momentary mode and do pitch divebombs when you press the footswitch!

The Bass Whammy has a few modes that are fun to add on top of a solo octave up:

+5th / -4th as mentioned earlier can be used to generate two different inversions of power chords, letting you change between a high and low one by rocking the pedal.

+5th / +Oct lets you have a power chord with the heel down, then be able to bend that up to an octave up. 

+5th / +6th spreads a semitone over the full range of the treadle, so you can do a power chord but then press the pedal slightly to do a bluesy bend on that 5th up.

[Al Krow]

26 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

The Mosaic can't solo the octave up however, which might be important if using it in a parallel setup to generate a fake guitar sound.

True.

Although I'd personally say it was so good Stew won't necessarily even need to run in parallel. Some sound clips of the Mosaic posted earlier this year, so Stew can hear it in action.

 

[dannybuoy]

Depends what you want to do with your chain. If you want a Royal Blood style fake guitar, going to an amp sim and possibly other effects, but keeping the low end dry, you'd need something else.

[stewblack]

9 minutes ago, dannybuoy said:

Depends what you want to do with your chain. If you want a Royal Blood style fake guitar, going to an amp sim and possibly other effects, but keeping the low end dry, you'd need something else.

Yep, I'm after not getting a guitarist. I dream of a band without a bloody guitarist 

[Woodinblack]

I used both a fishman powerchord FX and the akai Unibass. Both do a 5th up / 4th down, octave etc.

both do what they say and can sound good if a little artificial. The fish man was a little less artificial but a bit more flexible 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, Woodinblack said:

I used both a fishman powerchord FX and the akai Unibass. Both do a 5th up / 4th down, octave etc.

both do what they say and can sound good if a little artificial. The fish man was a little less artificial but a bit more flexible 

Ah yes, thanks Woody, I was trying to remember the Fishman. I recall having seen one in the FS around 12 months back and thinking that looks really interesting, at the time and the chap selling it describing it as a great way of replacing a rhythm guitar (or more precisely for a 3 man band) - which would seem to be just what Stew is after. It's a lot less than a Hog 2, but still not a budget option at around £240, though.

I've not personally owned any Fishman gear, but it does seem to be highly regarded by fellow BC'ers.

Edited September 1, 2019 by Al Krow

[stewblack]

I won't be spending a fortune as there's no guarantee the band will go for it. But a decent couple of pedals I could use anyway or move on here will be OK 

[Al Krow]

Just found the ad, it was actually almost two years back, in fact! 

Here's what some of the other sellers said about their Fishman Fissions...

"When I got it I was in a three piece and it was specifically for the times in songs like american idiot where the guitar goes for a solo and you are left with a bit of a space that needs filling. This does that well.
It gives you a sound of your bass plus one octave up, one fifth up and a forth below. Or with another switch the 5th and 4th are around the octave. It works very well for some songs (american idiot being one of those)."

 "It's a great thing if you put it at the front of your signal chain and want that Royal Blood kind of sound" 

"In a 3-piece? Need more bass oomph during guitar solos? The Fishman Fission Bass Powerchord can do the job for you. To the note you're playing you can add an octave above, a 4th below, or a 5th above. You can choose just one of these, or you can use two, or even all three of them. It really beefs up your sound so that the guitar player can go off on one without the whole sound seeming empty."

[Al Krow]

Damn - I'm going to end up getting one of these myself, if I'm not careful, I can tell 😂

One of my bands just has bass, and one guitar so we could similarly do with filling out the sound, and this might just be the answer (another bit of expenditure I need to blame Woody for - haha!)

The pitch shift is pretty good on HX the Stomp, but weirdly the octave up effect less so (more latency and certainly not as good as the Mosaic). Be interesting to see if I can get a decent Fishman Powerchord patch on the Stomp using several pitch shift effects combined. Ok that's a little project to keep me out of mischief... 

 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Al Krow

[floFC]

4 hours ago, Woodinblack said:

I used both a fishman powerchord FX and the akai Unibass. Both do a 5th up / 4th down, octave etc.

both do what they say and can sound good if a little artificial. The fish man was a little less artificial but a bit more flexible 

Yes, it’s exactly what the Akaï Unibass UB-1 does. Also has distortion and a noise gate.

[Woodinblack]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

One of my bands just has bass, and one guitar so we could similarly do with filling out the sound, and this might just be the answer (another bit of expenditure I need to blame Woody for - haha!)

Tbh, I would very surprised if you couldn’t get the stomp to do the same thing. The akai I think had a better sound but not the flexibility and was a bit glitchy sometimes (and stupidly overpriced now)

the fishman I had (and the akai before it) when I was in a 3 piece doing all that 70s punk pop stuff and green day, works well for that, maybe less for rock

i use the octave up on the hx effect for the “second guitar” on “are you going my way”, works ok

 

 

[Al Krow]

40 minutes ago, floFC said:

Yes, it’s exactly what the Akaï Unibass UB-1 does. Also has distortion and a noise gate.

Looks like the Akai may now be out of production though?

...and as Woody has just commented very expensive used - true of a bunch of other Akai pedals e.g. Deep Impact - they clearly have a cult following! 

Edited September 1, 2019 by Al Krow

[floFC]

43 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Looks like the Akai may now be out of production though?

...and as Woody has just commented very expensive used - true of a bunch of other Akai pedals e.g. Deep Impact - they clearly have a cult following! 

Yes, it is out of production, but they come up for sale from time to time. I would think they can be had for less that a new Fishman Fission - but probably still above budget for @stewblack.

The Deep Impact is crazy expensive on the other hand!!

[Woodinblack]

4 minutes ago, floFC said:

Yes, it is out of production, but they come up for sale from time to time. I would think they can be had for less that a new Fishman Fission - but probably still above budget for @stewblack.

No, the last ones I saw were very overpriced, the fishman is a better deal

[Daz39]

Fishman fission; I knew i wasn’t totally senile!