Buzz vs Relief

[wishface]

Short of filing or stoning the frets, what can be done to alleviate fret buzz at the 12th and beyond if you want to lower action even further? Or is that just the practical limit of any guitar?

[Cuzzie]

I take it you have straightened/bowed the neck to taste with the truss rod?

That can be done alongside an angled shim to get the desired shape, or indeed a gentle file down could do it

[HowieBass]

You might have a touch too much relief. Try reducing it a little and see if that cures your problem. 

[PaulWarning]

I'm not sure neck relief effects the higher frets it's down to saddle adjustment, so it's a trade off between fret buzz, string height and how hard you hit/pluck the strings, I've found the Fenders string height recommendations for a P bass aren't far off the mark

[gary mac]

I'm reluctant to get involved, as usually once you're given the advice, you decide to not act on it as you don't want to spend out on tools or other products.

This job does usually require tools.

[wishface]

10 minutes ago, gary mac said:

I'm reluctant to get involved, as usually once you're given the advice, you decide to not act on it as you don't want to spend out on tools or other products.

This job does usually require tools.

Not wanting to spend is not the same as not having the means to spend. There is a difference which has been made clear every time I have posted.

I have never said I do not have tools for this job.  I have a key for the truss rod and the saddles and have never said otherwise.

[wishface]

49 minutes ago, HowieBass said:

You might have a touch too much relief. Try reducing it a little and see if that cures your problem. 

I thought relief only affected the lower frets, either way

[DoubleOhStephan]

@wishface it's very difficult for anyone here to be able to offer a definative answer to your question (although they're a helpful bunch so will try their best) as it there are a number of variables which need to be ruled out before knowing for certain exactly what the "problem"  is. 

Example - Is the neck relief correct, is the bridge set correctly, is the nut correct? If yes then, does the neck have a twist or bow, are the frets worn, are they bedded in correctly, does the neck require a shim etc etc.

All of those things really need to be understood before the issue can be diagnosed and the correct solution offered. And without having the bass in hand and only a text discription of the problem (especially by someone who is inexperienced) makes solutionising almost impossible. 

I totally accept you're unable to pay to get a tech to look at your bass, but hoping to get an answer on a forum without being able to rule out any of the factors which cause fret buzz is a bit wishful (no pun intended) thinking.

My advice would be to forget what you think the problem is, start again from scratch and look at the youtube set-up tutorial below (there are plenty of others on the if you don't like these). 

This is video 1 of 4, go through them in order following the instructions precisely - 

Once done, you'll then know you've eliminated poor set-up as a cause and have an actual fault which needs fixing. If that's the case, search for tutorials specific to that issue and work through it. 

Hope this helps.

Edited September 1, 2019 by DoubleOhStephan

[wishface]

i've noticed many people say the relief should measure the thickness of a credit card, but that's actually twice what your guy in that clip recommends. What are these standard measurements based on?

[DoubleOhStephan]

It's personal preference, this guy is setting up to an average height, some want higher, some what lower

[Cuzzie]

Yep

I started using these exact same videos and still use them, only difference being I have brought the action down slightly using the saddles, or if I run out of room I shim the pocket to achieve what I want, but the principles here are very very sound and if you follow and still get no joy, You will not have damaged the bass for a tech to take over

[wishface]

I've askethis before, possibly elsewhere, but how do you determine when you should create distance between fret and string through truss rod and string action

[ped]

I press the string at the first and last fret and see how far away the string is from the middle frets. Personally I like it so close you can't see any gap but just about feel a tiny bit when you press it down. It's all by feel, so just try it and see. Acoustically, my basses with low action rattle a fair bit but plugged in you get that nice clank when you dig in and no nasty fret buzz.

If the saddles won't go low enough my preference is to file down the string saddle using abrasive cord rather than shim the neck, unless it needs adjustment by shimming one end, but in that case I'd probably get rid instead. Ive had many instruments that can't support a low enough actin and the next owner they suit fine!

[Cuzzie]

Sense spoken above.

You can make your own shims easily enough, or......

https://www.stewmac.com/Materials_and_Supplies/Bodies_and_Necks_and_Wood/Electric_Bass_Bodies_and_Necks_and_Wood/Bass_Necks/StewMac_Neck_Shims_for_Bass.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2019-09-gp&pref_currency=P&shipcalc=UK&gclid=Cj0KCQjw2K3rBRDiARIsAOFSW_4SWhSBrI1gAh9OydOZkyuoH_90ZihKJHDSE0G0rcx_BbCY4AZGq-saAo-hEALw_wcB

[HowieBass]

A business card (cardboard) is the thickness you're looking for with neck relief, a plastic credit card is too thick. Fret buzz near the nut suggests there's too little relief; fret buzz at the dusty end suggest there's too much relief. You should only set the action (saddle height) once the relief has been set correctly. 

[wishface]

4 hours ago, ped said:

I press the string at the first and last fret and see how far away the string is from the middle frets. Personally I like it so close you can't see any gap but just about feel a tiny bit when you press it down. It's all by feel, so just try it and see. Acoustically, my basses with low action rattle a fair bit but plugged in you get that nice clank when you dig in and no nasty fret buzz.

If the saddles won't go low enough my preference is to file down the string saddle using abrasive cord rather than shim the neck, unless it needs adjustment by shimming one end, but in that case I'd probably get rid instead. Ive had many instruments that can't support a low enough actin and the next owner they suit fine!

I'd like the same set up, but I'm getting buzz mainly around the 12th fret. 
Is that too much relief?

 

[wishface]

2 hours ago, HowieBass said:

A business card (cardboard) is the thickness you're looking for with neck relief, a plastic credit card is too thick. Fret buzz near the nut suggests there's too little relief; fret buzz at the dusty end suggest there's too much relief. You should only set the action (saddle height) once the relief has been set correctly. 

Sure, but what happens if, having set the relief accordingly, you're still getting buzz? Are there some basses that just can't handle a low action?

What is the reasoning behind the idea that relief must be set correctly (given that it can be subjective) before tending to string height?

[ped]

18 minutes ago, wishface said:

I'd like the same set up, but I'm getting buzz mainly around the 12th fret. 
Is that too much relief?

 

Sounds like you might need your frets levelling then. Whereabouts are you?

[HowieBass]

1 hour ago, wishface said:

Sure, but what happens if, having set the relief accordingly, you're still getting buzz? Are there some basses that just can't handle a low action?

What is the reasoning behind the idea that relief must be set correctly (given that it can be subjective) before tending to string height?

Because if you do it based on recommended measurements (I use the Fender guide) you have to set relief first because string height above the frets is affected by how much relief there is. Refer to any bass setup guide and it'll advise you to set relief first. If, after correctly setting relief and action, you find that fret buzz still occurs, then it's time to start checking for high/uneven frets. 

[wishface]

1 hour ago, ped said:

Sounds like you might need your frets levelling then. Whereabouts are you?

I live in north somerset. I'm afraid I can't afford a pro at the moment. It woudl be a good idea, when I can, to get someone to look at it. I'm sure it's nothing as major as that

[wishface]

9 minutes ago, HowieBass said:

Because if you do it based on recommended measurements (I use the Fender guide) you have to set relief first because string height above the frets is affected by how much relief there is. Refer to any bass setup guide and it'll advise you to set relief first. If, after correctly setting relief and action, you find that fret buzz still occurs, then it's time to start checking for high/uneven frets. 

Isn't correct relief a funcion of preference (within reason)? Standard measurements are obviously useful, but many guides also say that it's subjective. One person's clearance might not work for another if they are slamming it like Geezer Butler, for example. No?

[ped]

6 minutes ago, wishface said:

I live in north somerset. I'm afraid I can't afford a pro at the moment. It woudl be a good idea, when I can, to get someone to look at it. I'm sure it's nothing as major as that

There might be a Basschatter who can take a look for free. Very difficult to assess by proxy.

Relief is a preference but the physics of the string do mean that it's fairly standard to have some relief to compensate for string movement. You can end up going round in circles if you don't do everything in the correct order, so it's good to start with a recommended setup if you don't have much experience doing it yourself, and go from there.

[Cuzzie]

I am by no means a pro, but do my own set ups.

I am in Bristol - happy to help if you are passing and we can get a mutually convenient time

[Cuzzie]

I learnt following the videos posted here, so there you go!

[wishface]

6 minutes ago, ped said:

There might be a Basschatter who can take a look for free. Very difficult to assess by proxy.

Relief is a preference but the physics of the string do mean that it's fairly standard to have some relief to compensate for string movement. You can end up going round in circles if you don't do everything in the correct order, so it's good to start with a recommended setup if you don't have much experience doing it yourself, and go from there.

That would be great if possible. Otherwise i'll just have to save my pennies and have a word in town. 

I think the truss rod is set pretty correctly. I've lowered the action to where I want it, and it's not too bad. The buzz is more noticable when not amplified but it would be nice to have experienced hands take a gander