Honesty and trust not important these days ?

[Skinnyman]

I think I’m with you, Dave. If I promise to do something, i feel honour bound to do it. Maybe that makes us old fashioned. Maybe it means we’re doomed to a life of disappointment.

Then again, just about everyone I’ve dealt with on BC has acted with integrity and honesty so maybe I’ve been lucky - but I’d like to think you just had a bad experience that is not the norm for this community.

Tell yourself that you may have dodged a bullet this time (who knows what else might have gone wrong when the money got involved) and put it down to experience - I know that doesn’t really help but there’s not a lot else you can do.

 

[PaulWarning]

I'm afraid in spite of what we'd like to think there's just as many unethical people amongst bass players as there is in any walk of life, that's not to say there's a lot, but you don't need many to give everybody a bad name, same with not clearing up dog stinky poo and leaving litter lying around

[stewblack]

Only had one deal here which gave me any cause for concern and I was warned off by a vigilant fellow member. The mods dealt with the guy, no harm done. 

The chap who changed his mind and refunded did nothing to put me off trading here with him or anyone else. 

I can't count all the other hassle free transactions I've enjoyed over the years. This is still a safe place. 

[chris_b]

9 hours ago, wateroftyne said:

Sometimes people let you down. It’s disappointing, but nothing more.

+1

The sale isn't done until you've paid for and received the item. This thread isn't about dishonesty, has nothing to do with trust, and is all about the OP's disappointment, which is understandable.

I've backed out of one sale half way through, something didn't feel right about it, and had several sellers change their minds mid sale. Someone even remembered, at the very last second (I had my coat on to go to the bank) that he'd forgotten he'd previously promised the amp to someone else!!.

I've also been gazumped several times when trying to buy a house. A sale falling through at the last minute can be frustrating, but it's not unusual and is just part of buying and selling.

[dmccombe7]

After having a good nights sleep and on hindsight maybe i shouldn't have reacted the way i did. I have not and will not name and shame for something that appears trivial 

Like most that have replied we agree this is not nice no matter what the reason and its disappointing when it happens.

On the other hand some people have made their point clear that i shouldn't be raising this topic for discussion. Its their right to voice their own opinions on BC whether i agree with them or not.

The thread has obviously been a contentious subject and for me justifies posting it. Its created debate without aggression.

I'll continue to live my life knowing that when i agree something i'll stand by it.

 

 

[stewblack]

1 minute ago, dmccombe7 said:

After having a good nights sleep and on hindsight maybe i shouldn't have reacted the way i did. I have not and will not name and shame for something that appears trivial 

Like most that have replied we agree this is not nice no matter what the reason and its disappointing when it happens.

On the other hand some people have made their point clear that i shouldn't be raising this topic for discussion. Its their right to voice their own opinions on BC whether i agree with them or not.

The thread has obviously been a contentious subject and for me justifies posting it. Its created debate without aggression.

I'll continue to live my life knowing that when i agree something i'll stand by it.

 

 

As I said earlier my reaction was different from yours but not right or wrong just different. You've every right to your feelings and to voice them. 

The real positive here is that we can share ideas, experiences and views without resorting to nastiness and name calling. 

[chris_b]

7 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

On the other hand some people have made their point clear that i shouldn't be raising this topic for discussion.

Really? I would have thought it was a perfectly valid subject for discussion.

[stewblack]

Just now, chris_b said:

Really? I would have thought it was a perfectly valid subject for discussion.

Well quite 

[Daz39]

I was just waiting for the location of the inevitable duel! Surely honour demands it!

[Krysbass]

Similar to the O.P.; if I have agreed a sale with someone, I would honour it, even if I'd subsequently had seller's remorse.

But the unfortunate reality is that it is not mandatory to follow that standard, so it comes down to how each of us as individuals chooses to do things....

Edited September 5, 2019 by Krysbass

[Al Krow]

We've all gotta be allowed to change our minds, surely? And particularly if it's done before any cash has changed hands then it seems pretty innocent to me.

There are plenty of FS threads where fellow BCers actually question "why are you selling this, you're mad!" etc. and folk do withdraw items from sale. Should the ability to withdraw an item be taken away and once listed we are all forced to sell?

Let's turn this around and apply the same rule to our buying products online that are in perfect working order, but that we simply don't like. Should we 'as a matter of honour' not be allowed to return them so we don't disappoint the retailer and knacker their sales margins (which returns have the effect of doing)?

Dave I know you're disappointed and also that you're a great BC'er, but I have to agree with Si, Cam, Hiram et al and their sentiment that folk do change their minds and we just need to be grown up about it and move on. Life's too short and there are a zillion other wonderful basses out there with willing sellers who would love to part you from your cash.

[Dan Dare]

43 minutes ago, chris_b said:

+1

The sale isn't done until you've paid for and received the item. This thread isn't about dishonesty, has nothing to do with trust, and is all about the OP's disappointment, which is understandable.

I've backed out of one sale half way through, something didn't feel right about it, and had several sellers change their minds mid sale. Someone even remembered, at the very last second (I had my coat on to go to the bank) that he'd forgotten he'd previously promised the amp to someone else!!.

I've also been gazumped several times when trying to buy a house. A sale falling through at the last minute can be frustrating, but it's not unusual and is just part of buying and selling.

This. People are entitled to change their minds (and often do) or even accept a better offer for something that is their property, after all.

[dmccombe7]

So if someone tells you they will do something and don't you are all ok with that. ? 

Each to their own. Its not the way i was brought up.

Edited September 5, 2019 by dmccombe7

[wateroftyne]

Just now, dmccombe7 said:

So if someone tells you they will do something and don't you are all ok with that. ? 

Each to their own. Its not the way i was brought up.

If someone told me they were going to throw me a lifebelt after I'd fallen off a pier and didn't... I'd be furious.

If someone told me they were going to sell me a bass and didn't... I'd be mildly annoyed. 

[stewblack]

4 minutes ago, dmccombe7 said:

So if someone tells you they will do something and don't you are all ok with that. ? 

Each to their own. Its not the way i was brought up.

Yes. Others are allowed to reconsider and change their minds. Just as you and anyone else is entitled to be disappointed 

[ped]

3 minutes ago, wateroftyne said:

If someone told me they were going to throw me a lifebelt after I'd fallen off a pier and didn't... I'd be furious.

...or dead 🤣

[ped]

Bunch of arses!

[stewblack]

This is a fascinating discussion. One could deepen it by asking: if we are interested in honour and decency, which of us has bought something we know to be under priced? 

Do we offer more money? Or do we experience a sense of dishonourable satisfaction? 

Ethics and morals always suffer a certain elasticity in the context of money. We all delight in a bargain but a bargain only means someone else getting less than they ought to. 

Similarly we applaud distance selling regations which allow us to 'cool off' but are unhappy if a seller 'cools off'. 

Perhaps this whole situation would have ended more happily if the seller simply asked to be allowed to pull out and explained why. Thus giving the buyer the power of choice. Had this happened and the buyer refused would the seller be here bemoaning a lack of decency? Possibly. 

 

[phil.c60]

I sold a very nice  '75 Jazz bass to someone on here for less than I might have got elsewhere because they weren't sure that a vintage instrument was for them, on the basis that I would buy it back/have first refusal if they decided it wasn't their cup of tea. Had a message from them a few months later saying that they had decided not to keep it, and did I want it back but at a much higher price (several hundred pounds higher) "because the market has moved on since then". I had a sinking feeling when they came to collect it that this might happen, and carried on with the deal out of courtesy/honour/ethics call it what you will. Certainly bit me in the posterior. And no, I didn't buy it back.

[wateroftyne]

What is the collective noun for 'derrières', anyway?

A Basschat of derrières, perhaps?

[stingrayPete1977]

Until the cash-bass exchange is done I don't pin my hopes on anything be I the seller or buyer. 

Don't count your chickens as they say. 

I get that it's annoying and I'm the same as you Dave, I bought an electric van earlier this year which got me in a panic about the range soon after leaving the deposit, it was the first thing in my life I'd cancelled the order on, normally I'd have sucked it up but I felt even if I lost the deposit my mental health was more important. 

I sold a few basses this year and one guy was practically as good as a done deal, someone else offered me the cash and I took it as the first buyer went a little quiet on me, many people would have waited a little longer for his reply and I did feel a bit bad, but, four months later he still hasn't replied! 

Edited September 5, 2019 by stingrayPete1977

[Guest MoJo]

15 hours ago, dmccombe7 said:

Surely you don't advertise an item for sale if you aren't sure. Just me that thinks that way ???   

I have to admit that I have listed items for sale and then withdrawn them a few days later because I'd decided that it was just GAS pushing me to make the change when I was perfectly happy with what I'd got in the first place. The early onset of seller's regret, so to speak. I have also sold basses and then bought them back again. That said, it'd be a different thing if I'd agreed a sale, I wouldn't be one to back out on that.

[stingrayPete1977]

5 minutes ago, phil.c60 said:

I sold a very nice  '75 Jazz bass to someone on here for less than I might have got elsewhere because they weren't sure that a vintage instrument was for them, on the basis that I would buy it back/have first refusal if they decided it wasn't their cup of tea. Had a message from them a few months later saying that they had decided not to keep it, and did I want it back but at a much higher price (several hundred pounds higher) "because the market has moved on since then". I had a sinking feeling when they came to collect it that this might happen, and carried on with the deal out of courtesy/honour/ethics call it what you will. Certainly bit me in the posterior. And no, I didn't buy it back.

As much as I'd have shoved the extra few hundred up where the sun don't shine at the same time where do you draw the line? This happens in the classic car world too where people ask for first refusal, the new owner is honoring their part of the deal by offering it back but what if "the market has moved on" as you say, A Lotus Cortina ten years ago was £10-20k, now they are £50k+, should the buyer offer it back at 20k, not offer at all even though they promised or offer it back but at market value? 

[dmccombe7]

1 minute ago, stewblack said:

This is a fascinating discussion. One could deepen it by asking: if we are interested in honour and decency, which of us has bought something we know to be under priced? 

Do we offer more money? Or do we experience a sense of dishonourable satisfaction? 

Ethics and morals always suffer a certain elasticity in the context of money. We all delight in a bargain but a bargain only means someone else getting less than they ought to. 

Similarly we applaud distance selling regations which allow us to 'cool off' but are unhappy if a seller 'cools off'. 

Perhaps this whole situation would have ended more happily if the seller simply asked to be allowed to pull out and explained why. Thus giving the buyer the power of choice. Had this happened and the buyer refused would the seller be here bemoaning a lack of decency? Possibly. 

 

Couple of things i can answer there.

I was offered an amp at a price which i agreed then the seller said he'd seen the amp at a lower price and suggested the lower price. I told him i would pay what we agreed on . Answer to your question is YES i did pay what we agreed on initially.

That's morals and ethics for you. Its what makes people honest and trustworthy (possibly stupid in some peoples opinions on BC) Old fashioned decency i guess but its what defines a persons character. People on BC can joke all they like about ethics, morals, decency and honesty but i'm happy to be known as someone of good character that can be trusted to do what i say i will.

Your last point is YES again. I think if the seller had approached me in a different manner i would have been disappointed but understood where he's coming from and that choice to agree on not proceeding would have been mine and i can tell you now i would have accepted that without issue. 

I guess that's what this is down to. Its how you present yourself. Some people can do it well while others don't have the ability. 

 

 

 

[Cuzzie]

What about a scenario where you are booked to play a gig at a venue, turn down other gigs/family events etc. Because of doing this gig.

Venue turns around and says last minute they don’t want you to play.

Similar scenario/ different scenario?

No money has been lost and no children or animals hurt in this episode.

Would the win some/lose some idea still apply?

Purely Devils advocate here, no axe to grind.