BB2000 Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 [quote name='paul, the' post='3320' date='May 21 2007, 05:39 AM']How do you know Carol Kaye's is different? If no one has her transcription, I might order book .4 from America and check it out. I've heard one or two complaints about the Slutsky transcription, but I'm sure it's nonsense. Although, Jamerson is renowned for adding many deadened and in-between notes (for want of a better word) for intonation and rhythmic feel.[/quote] If you order any of Carol Kaye's books she will add some "goodies" to your order, including transcriptions of various popular tunes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2000 Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 [quote name='OldGit' post='4498' date='May 22 2007, 05:16 PM']I just hope it was all Jamerson 'cos Carole Kay's smelly attitude puts me right off her as a person. Not her playing though. I don't think being a bad person makes you a bad bassplayer ...[/quote] What exactly is her "smelly attitude"? Carol says she played on Stevie Wonder's I was made to love her, so she probably did. Likewise JJ likely cut a version. It wouldn't surprise me if another bassist played on the released track. Thinking that Carol may have claimed this line to "embellish their resume in order to get work", as some do, is patently nonsense. Carol was the 1st call session bassist in LA for many years and had nothing to prove to anyone. At the time Motown were indeed a hit factory, recording a single every hour or so, some of which sat on the shelves for years before release. Some of the seminal bass lines were just another tune, part of another day at work at the time, and it's no surprise that nobody bothered to make detailed records - nobody gave a sh*t who played what. If you correspond with CK you'll find she's a lovely genuine person (as I'm sure JJ was) and not the fanatic she's portrayed to be. A lot of the venom directed at her seems to have started following Slutskys SITSOM project, when he started to ridicule her claims. It's interesting that Slutsky has caused a fracture of the remaining Funk Brothers (there's at least two variants now touring) and is being sued by several of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesandman Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 [quote name='paul, the' post='2514' date='May, 05:34 PM']Thanks guys. Kaye certainly didn't always use a pick.[/quote] I have several of her books and videos and I don't remember her ever mentioning not playing with a pick. How did I miss that one? Not arguing, I just want to know what I missed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 Well I have just listened to it and it sounds like Jamerson but by 1967 lots of people were playing Jamerson - Paul McCartney included. Lots of early stuff was cut live but this is a stereo recording (although rather crude) with tellingly just the vocals and bass centre in the mix. Legend has it that once Motown went multi-track Jamerson got a track to himself. Alternatively this also makes it possible for the bass to be re-recorded. The songwriting credits Henry Crosby, Lula Hardaway, Stevie and Sylvia Moy. The song was produced by Henry Crosby. So unless someone can get a straight answer from Stevie, he is the next definitive opinion. It is even possible that the vocals and bass were recorded separately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 22, 2007 Share Posted May 22, 2007 [quote name='BB2000' post='4586' date='May 22 2007, 07:43 PM']What exactly is her "smelly attitude"?[/quote] Makes me sniff a bit, that's all .. Been round this one about 4 times now since the first SITSOM came out and, in my opinion, what is my own and what I don't expect anyone else to share unreservedly, is that I find her website distastefully full of self agrandisment. She has done a huge amount, no doubt about it but I prefer Babbitt's approach. Feel free to form your own opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BB2000 Posted May 23, 2007 Share Posted May 23, 2007 [quote name='OldGit' post='4841' date='May 23 2007, 12:56 AM']expect anyone else to share unreservedly, is that I find her website distastefully full of self agrandisment.[/quote] Compared to Babbitt's site anyone's would appear that way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted May 23, 2007 Share Posted May 23, 2007 After looking at Bob Babbit's site, it sounds like Bob is in the same boat as Carol Kaye with regards to incorrect recording details. I guess that if James Jamerson was still alive he would be making similar claims, given the seemingly incompetent way in which the record business was managed back then. It seems to me to be yet another example of the artists and musicians coming a long way last in the recording industry food chain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalim Posted May 23, 2007 Share Posted May 23, 2007 Hi, I have read a lot on who played 'I was made to love her' and I personally think that Jameson played on the recording but that is not to say that Carol Kay did not may be play on a version of this recoding or demo as Slutsy's book on Jameson goes into some detail about how recordings were made in other areas and then trasnferred across. I honestly can't see Carol Kay deliberately trying to doop people as she was also a great session player with a great reputation, I read that some drummers use to be so nervous when recording with her as she was that good! And lets not forget that she too had a Jazz background as a guitarist, so she had an ability to come up with slick creative lines too. So I think we should give her the benefit of doubt, even if she may not have played on the original, she may have done so on a re-release or demo version or something and could have got mixed up, or two versions recorded whereby Jamesons got selected somewhere along the line? Cheers Kalim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted May 23, 2007 Share Posted May 23, 2007 Well I "knew" Carol Kaye played on all the motown stuff way before I had ever heard of Jamerson. Perhaps she just thought that no one was ever gonna know about Jamerson so why not take the credit for his work. You cant really confuse THE version of I Was Made..... with a cover version or alternate version. If there were alternate versions I am sure the records producer and the artist responsible would have known. What with Lamont, Dozier, Holland swearing she never played on any of their stuff it does seem a bit odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thesandman Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 Carol played on tons of records. But so did Lee Sklar, Bob Glaub, Joe Osborn, Duck Dunn, and they're still playing sessions. What happened to Carol? This isn't a dig? But I wonder... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pbassred Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 [quote]Dont you think that someone (other than herself) would have remembered a White female pick playing bassist playing on a black singers tune with a whole band of black musician's?[/quote] The logic that:- it is impossible because it was unusual, is false. This is a dangerous quote, because it is based on the perception of other people's raceism. Not that I'm calling anyone a raceist. Please understand that. However I have heard this argument used as fact before. [b]The real facts are:- That Berrie Gordy was a equal oportunities employer. Carol Kaye was a top line session musician and did record at Motown.[/b] Her presence at a Mowton session would not have been unusual. Nor would re-recording parts with whoever was available at the time. That said, her self publicity has been far more prominent than JJ's, no doubt, to sell her books. I don't think anyone really knows. To say that she wasn't at a cirtain session doesn't mean that she wasn't at [i]any[/i] session. I bet when they did the final mixdown they just took the bits that worked best. Its what I'd do. Mowton was a factory. Maybe that reworked each others parts. Maybe they're [b]both[/b] on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slaphappygarry Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 [quote]Maybe they're [b]both[/b] on it.[/quote] Thats the only possibility i have to outright disagree with. I just listened to it a few times just now, it sounds like the same player and gear through the whole tune. After the vocals the bass is next in the mix volume wise. It would stick out like a sore thumb is it was spliced with another player (think the last Jamiroquai album where three bass players were used on one track along). On such a concentrative listen i did pick out a sloppy bit though Check out the transition at 1.34 - sounds like a nasty old school edit in the guitar (especially) and drum part (which i think is bang on). I await the flameing I dont know C Kays playing well enough to decide for myself for sure but what an awesome thread. G Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 I have to say, with all due respect to Carol Kaye and her achievements (probably more that the whole of bass chat put together) that the evidence emphatically suggests she had nothing whatsoever to do with Stevie Wonders I Was Made..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted May 24, 2007 Share Posted May 24, 2007 [quote name='Pbassred' post='5656' date='May 24 2007, 12:36 PM']That said, her self publicity has been far more prominent than JJ's, no doubt, to sell her books.[/quote] Yeah well she does have one rather obvious advantage in that area ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassLand Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Hi BassChat, I was researching the Kaye - Jamerson question and this bass chat came up. I enjoyed the past posts and see that my site BassLand.net was quoted several times. I am the creator of the Jamerson tribute page at [url="http://bassland.net/jamerson.html"]http://bassland.net/jamerson.html[/url] and co-creator of the Jamerson MySpace site [url="http://MySpace.com/JamesJamerson578"]http://MySpace.com/JamesJamerson578[/url] along with a member of the Jamerson family. There is a very compelling interview on your own very popular BBC that addresses issues central to this so-called controversy. The interview is with Holland Dozier Holland and they discuss production techniques on all of the records they produced and wrote for Motown Records including Bernadette which, must be considered a groundbreaking record (especially the bass playing) and many more recordings that are part of CK's claims. [url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/events/60sseason/documentaries/recordproducers.shtml"]http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/events/60sseas...producers.shtml[/url] This should lay rest to a great deal of the controversy and is great listening. They isolate tracks from the original multitrack masters and it has James Jamerson's and the rest of the Funk Brothers signatures all over it. All that having been said this certainly does not mean that Kaye is abandoning her "CLAIMS". She claims she is writing a book on the subject. I do believe that history will treat her harshly for trying to abscond with the credits of one of the first electric bass virtuoso and a true innovator that has touched the lives of most bassplayers that follow in his footsteps. "Everybody Else Can't Be Wrong" BassLand [url="http://MySpace.com/bobleedesign"]http://MySpace.com/bobleedesign[/url] [url="http://YouTube.com/BassLabD"]http://YouTube.com/BassLabD[/url] [url="http://BassLand.net"]http://BassLand.net[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantdosleepy Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 It's pretty obvious to me that on most of the recordings she was fretting and he was plucking. What a team! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Just on the point about them both potentially being on the record or Kaye's part having been overdubbed, I think it's important to note that at Motown they only used three mics: 2 room mics and 1 lead vocal mic. They did not multi-track. If you don't multi-track, that makes wiping an individual instrument and overdubbing another almost impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 (edited) [quote name='bass_ferret' post='4607' date='May 22 2007, 06:29 PM']Lots of early stuff was cut live but this is a stereo recording (although rather crude) with tellingly just the vocals and bass centre in the mix. Legend has it that once Motown went multi-track Jamerson got a track to himself. Alternatively this also makes it possible for the bass to be re-recorded.[/quote] Sorry, did not see this. Should be put next to what I put about them not multi-tracking. I don't have any firm evidence/sources. I just remember seeing it on the Standing In The Shadows Of Motown documentary. EDIT: I'm pretty sure Axis: Bold As Love was the first 4-track recording though and that was 1967, wasn't it? Obviously multi-track overdubs existed before that (eg. Pet Sounds) but I still think the multi-track recording technology was only just coming into play when this track was recorded - and it might not have reached Motown at this point. It still sounds like it was recorded live, but just mixed in stereo rather than mono. Edited October 30, 2007 by The Funk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I suspect some of the confusion lies in tracks being recut for TV/film over in LA, in which case Ms Kaye may have honestly believed she was doing the original recording. It is all rather bizarre because to my ears some of these recordings are so obviously done by Jamerson... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cantdosleepy Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='The Funk' post='81318' date='Oct 30 2007, 04:23 PM']Sorry, did not see this. Should be put next to what I put about them not multi-tracking. I don't have any firm evidence/sources. I just remember seeing it on the Standing In The Shadows Of Motown documentary.[/quote] There was a thread a while ago with some isolated tracks from Four Tops etc. I've got them on my site if you want to snatch: [url="http://michaelphilipsmith.org/music.html"]http://michaelphilipsmith.org/music.html[/url] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Recording of Sgt Peppers started in December 1966 and that has to have used more than 2 tracks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGit Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='81358' date='Oct 30 2007, 05:24 PM']Recording of Sgt Peppers started in December 1966 and that has to have used more than 2 tracks![/quote] Yeah, two four tracks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 Well according to "Standing in the Shadows of Motown", a useful reference, Motown had 3 channels that was first used for the Marvalettes 1962 hit Please Mr Postman and two years later went straight to 8 tracks for the Supremes Baby Love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayfan Posted October 30, 2007 Share Posted October 30, 2007 I've read some of her claims before and it sounds like she's not so much got a chip on her shoulder, more a block inlay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul, the Posted October 30, 2007 Author Share Posted October 30, 2007 [quote name='BassLand' post='81302' date='Oct 30 2007, 03:44 PM']Hi BassChat... ...This should lay rest to a great deal of the controversy and is great listening. They isolate tracks from the original multitrack masters and it has James Jamerson's and the rest of the Funk Brothers signatures all over it. All that having been said this certainly does not mean that Kaye is abandoning her "CLAIMS". She claims she is writing a book on the subject. I do believe that history will treat her harshly for trying to abscond with the credits of one of the first electric bass virtuoso and a true innovator that has touched the lives of most bassplayers that follow in his footsteps. "Everybody Else Can't Be Wrong" BassLand [url="http://MySpace.com/bobleedesign"]http://MySpace.com/bobleedesign[/url] [url="http://YouTube.com/BassLabD"]http://YouTube.com/BassLabD[/url] [url="http://BassLand.net"]http://BassLand.net[/url][/quote] Thank you for your input, Mr. Lee! I feel honored to have such a Jamerson devotee post on the thread. And thank you for Bassland; which was an explosion of knowledge for me of what was previously just a beautiful tone and revolutionary style. Your website allowed me to meet the man and experience the time. All your own media is excellent too, I can hear the JJ influence but you make it your own with an amalgamation of other styles and experiences. Hope to see you putting your two cents elsewhere on forum every now and then too paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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