Drop Tuning Issues - Help!

[lastanthem88]

Hi all,

I'm drop tuning to D G C F for our singers voice, and I'm struggling with a few things that I hope some experienced people could help me out with. 

The first is that the strings feel loose and slack under my fingers, totally different to when I'm playing in standard tuning, there isn't the same resistance in the strings when I'm playing and I hate thee feeling.

The second is that the fret board seems 'noisy', almost clanky like a Rickenbacker, but not in a good way! There's some fret buzz also, but I don't want to change the action if possible as I've had it that way for years and it's perfect when I'm playing in standard tuning.

Can anyone advise me? Is it a different type of set up, heavier strings.... anything at all would be appreciated!

Cheers 

[itu]

Try D'Addario and string tension guide as a pdf. It should help you to choose right diameters for your tuning. Here you go:

http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

Edited September 9, 2019 by itu
the link

[lastanthem88]

36 minutes ago, itu said:

Try D'Addario and string tension guide as a pdf. It should help you to choose right diameters for your tuning. Here you go:

http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf

Thanks Itu, all a bit on the technical side for me, and technical I ain't haha! 

[geoffbyrne]

Use a 5 string & stick to standard tuning.

G.

[MoonBassAlpha]

2 issues, you are right !

1 tension - the strings will be looser. Heavier gauge of the same brand, or another brand designed for higher tension will help. You may need to adjust the nut slots to accommodate thicker strings

2 Setup - less tension on the strings means the neck will relax into more of a back bow, so you won't have as much relief. You'll need to slacken off the truss rod a bit to get the relief back

HTH

MBA

[lastanthem88]

22 minutes ago, MoonBassAlpha said:

2 issues, you are right !

1 tension - the strings will be looser. Heavier gauge of the same brand, or another brand designed for higher tension will help. You may need to adjust the nut slots to accommodate thicker strings

2 Setup - less tension on the strings means the neck will relax into more of a back bow, so you won't have as much relief. You'll need to slacken off the truss rod a bit to get the relief back

HTH

MBA

Thanks Moon Bass Alpha, very much appreciated - 55 to 110 gauge appropriate for this? 

[mcnach]

Try loosening up the truss rod first, that might be enough. By dropping the tuning on all 4 strings you've decreased the tension noticeably and the truss rod is pulling more than necessary. Turn it anti-clockwise, a bit at a time [1], and see if it gets to a reasonable playing setup.

 

[1] I'd use a quarter of a turn at a time, and wait maybe an hour before deciding it needs more or less as some necks may take a bit to settle. Most basses I've used settle almost immediately and there's no need to wait, but some do take a little bit so if you're not sure about yours best to wait initially.

[Cuzzie]

All the above good advice - DR DDT strings are pretty good at drop tuning as are their Hi Beams which are my current Fave

[lastanthem88]

20 hours ago, mcnach said:

Try loosening up the truss rod first, that might be enough. By dropping the tuning on all 4 strings you've decreased the tension noticeably and the truss rod is pulling more than necessary. Turn it anti-clockwise, a bit at a time [1], and see if it gets to a reasonable playing setup.

 

[1] I'd use a quarter of a turn at a time, and wait maybe an hour before deciding it needs more or less as some necks may take a bit to settle. Most basses I've used settle almost immediately and there's no need to wait, but some do take a little bit so if you're not sure about yours best to wait initially.

Thanks McNach, much appreciated, I'll give that a go - my level of technical knowledge for the time I've been playing bass is pathetic haha! Thank you for the advice.

[lastanthem88]

13 hours ago, Cuzzie said:

All the above good advice - DR DDT strings are pretty good at drop tuning as are their Hi Beams which are my current Fave

Thanks Cuzzie, I'll give them a whirl.

[Cuzzie]

They are not cheap tho!

[Bean9seventy]

On 09/09/2019 at 09:31, lastanthem88 said:

Hi all,

I'm drop tuning to D G C F for our singers voice, and I'm struggling with a few things that I hope some experienced people could help me out with. 

The first is that the strings feel loose and slack under my fingers, totally different to when I'm playing in standard tuning, there isn't the same resistance in the strings when I'm playing and I hate thee feeling.

The second is that the fret board seems 'noisy', almost clanky like a Rickenbacker, but not in a good way! There's some fret buzz also, but I don't want to change the action if possible as I've had it that way for years and it's perfect when I'm playing in standard tuning.

Can anyone advise me? Is it a different type of set up, heavier strings.... anything at all would be appreciated!

Cheers 

there are various ways to drop your strings ,, depending on the feel of the bass line / notes required ,, eg if you need just a low D  then simply de tune the E string to D ,, =

D A D G ,,  eg used by mark king ,  dropping every string by a whole tone is rarely required D G C F is a rare set up ,,, the most common is Eb Ab Db Gb ,, where you can de tune Eb to Db ,, giving you Db Ab Db Gb ,, i have used many combinations of de tuning

 

D G C F  could be used on eg "The S,O,S Band The Finest" its the only bass line i know where that method of tuning helps ,,, tho i have yet to try it using the more common D A D G set up ,,

thus a probable reason for a weak sound when you de tune could be your initial set up , set up for standard tuning only ,,, thus you probably will need to reconfigure your initial set up ,, fret board truss rod  strings etc to cater for de tuning ,,

here i am using an extreme set up ,, so many people have asked me about how i devised the de tune  for Tom Brownes Trowdown

simple ,, you de tune to Eb Ab Db Gb ,, then use the mark king method ,, de tune E to D = in this case Eb to Db  giving you Db Ab Db Gb

and here i am using the standard mark king de tune on the wrong song ; D ,,, it can only be played Kansas  city milk man apparently  ; D ,,,, i am sure there are other De-tunes on other level 42 LPs

finally recently i used the common method of Only dropping the E  string  to D =

  D A D G on The Word Girl ,, when de tuning  this way including  Db Ab Db Gb means the fingering changes ,, cheers

 

 

[Reggaebass]

23 minutes ago, Bean9seventy said:

D A D G on The Word Girl ,, when de tuning  this way including  Db Ab Db Gb means the fingering changes ,, cheers

Loving that video bean, I’d forgot that tune , I must add that to my playlist 👍

[lastanthem88]

57 minutes ago, Bean9seventy said:

there are various ways to drop your strings ,, depending on the feel of the bass line / notes required ,, eg if you need just a low D  then simply de tune the E string to D ,, =

D A D G ,,  eg used by mark king ,  dropping every string by a whole tone is rarely required D G C F is a rare set up ,,, the most common is Eb Ab Db Gb ,, where you can de tune Eb to Db ,, giving you Db Ab Db Gb ,, i have used many combinations of de tuning

 

D G C F  could be used on eg "The S,O,S Band The Finest" its the only bass line i know where that method of tuning helps ,,, tho i have yet to try it using the more common D A D G set up ,,

thus a probable reason for a weak sound when you de tune could be your initial set up , set up for standard tuning only ,,, thus you probably will need to reconfigure your initial set up ,, fret board truss rod  strings etc to cater for de tuning ,,

here i am using an extreme set up ,, so many people have asked me about how i devised the de tune  for Tom Brownes Trowdown

simple ,, you de tune to Eb Ab Db Gb ,, then use the mark king method ,, de tune E to D = in this case Eb to Db  giving you Db Ab Db Gb

and here i am using the standard mark king de tune on the wrong song ; D ,,, it can only be played Kansas  city milk man apparently  ; D ,,,, i am sure there are other De-tunes on other level 42 LPs

finally recently i used the common method of Only dropping the E  string  to D =

  D A D G on The Word Girl ,, when de tuning  this way including  Db Ab Db Gb means the fingering changes ,, cheers

 

 

Thanks for posting those, really appreciated - it's a tuning that I have to use though, as the band I'm working in drop a full tone so the tuning is D, G, C, F.

[Bean9seventy]

3 hours ago, lastanthem88 said:

Thanks for posting those, really appreciated - it's a tuning that I have to use though, as the band I'm working in drop a full tone so the tuning is D, G, C, F.

?? you only need to drop the One string from E to D ,, guys ??

and there are basses out there with a built in de tune latch ,, for the E string

if you feel you need to drop every string  D G C F,, then you may need to set up the bass / fret action truss rod strings etc accordingly & have a separate bass for standard tuning  ,,

you can get a brand new bass for $75.

remember, if you only de tune one string then its easy to tune it back ,,

if you like playing in D G C F all of the time / a gig Band or LP ?  then quit bothering about re tuning to standard tuning as you have initially  made it clear ,  its not required on the bass you are using at this time

here i am playing a bass line in the wrong tuning " deliberately" ( Eb Ab Db Gb ) in order to get a feel of consistently playing the bass in the tuning the band i was in wanted ,, 

thanks

[lastanthem88]

On 15/09/2019 at 12:19, mcnach said:

Try loosening up the truss rod first, that might be enough. By dropping the tuning on all 4 strings you've decreased the tension noticeably and the truss rod is pulling more than necessary. Turn it anti-clockwise, a bit at a time [1], and see if it gets to a reasonable playing setup.

 

[1] I'd use a quarter of a turn at a time, and wait maybe an hour before deciding it needs more or less as some necks may take a bit to settle. Most basses I've used settle almost immediately and there's no need to wait, but some do take a little bit so if you're not sure about yours best to wait initially.

Hi McNach - I’ve turned the truss rod a quarter anti clock wise as you suggested, and also put some 50-110 strings on... heavy! The action is now very high, and I can’t even adjust the bridge saddles to go any lower really. Is this common? How can I now get the action lower? The strings are much tighter now though which is good.

[Cuzzie]

Use a capo at the first fret, then fret the E string where the neck meets the body,using a feeler gauge 0.015” should just lift the string/slide under it at the 7th fret.

This is your correct neck relief, then you can lower the saddles to the string height.

If this is not enough you may need to file the nut to get the action even lower.

Ultimately if still high your neck pocket may be too deep and you might have to shim the neck to raise it, which consequently gives you more play with your saddles

[Bean9seventy]

1 hour ago, lastanthem88 said:

Hi McNach - I’ve turned the truss rod a quarter anti clock wise as you suggested, and also put some 50-110 strings on... heavy! The action is now very high, and I can’t even adjust the bridge saddles to go any lower really. Is this common? How can I now get the action lower? The strings are much tighter now though which is good.

 the trend is to move away from getting as low action as possible ,, heavy strings kind of work different too, they need a bit of space to move ,, tho its starting to sound interesting putting on max weight strings on a  D G C F set up should be enough  funk for anyone ,, the strings might feel a tad droopy ,, like that could be cool ,

be careful with the truss rod tho guys ,, you can snap the bass if you over tweak ,,

ps i did see a pro rock band with a straight level set up on his bass eg ,

the strings from bridge to nut had an amazing true line ,, no slope dip rise or fall over the frets or body ,, and it played like a bell 

london bass guitar show this weekend ,

cheers

[pineweasel]

16 hours ago, lastanthem88 said:

I’ve turned the truss rod a quarter anti clock wise as you suggested, and also put some 50-110 strings on... heavy! The action is now very high, and I can’t even adjust the bridge saddles to go any lower really. Is this common? How can I now get the action lower? The strings are much tighter now though which is good

I think the suggestion to slacken the truss rod was to see if you could improve matters with your old strings. Having fitted heavier strings, you'll need to tighten the truss rod back up to compensate for their increased tension. I expect you'll need to take it back to approximately where it was before, i.e a quarter turn clockwise, but do it in stages, measuring neck relief as you go. 

[Bean9seventy]

2 hours ago, pineweasel said:

I think the suggestion to slacken the truss rod was to see if you could improve matters with your old strings. Having fitted heavier strings, you'll need to tighten the truss rod back up to compensate for their increased tension. I expect you'll need to take it back to approximately where it was before, i.e a quarter turn clockwise, but do it in stages, measuring neck relief as you go. 

yeah , truss rod "can" be a tweak too far guys when you are splitting hairs on set up ,, eg the strings might start breaking faster ,, the bridge might start grinding & the fret plate might slowly weep back into its prime default position ,, if in doubt music shops can set the bass to pro bass level ,

shops do good m.o.t.s , that's what i do if i have serious set up issues " i go to denmark st ,, whats left of it #

thanks guys

 

[mcnach]

On 17/09/2019 at 19:57, lastanthem88 said:

Hi McNach - I’ve turned the truss rod a quarter anti clock wise as you suggested, and also put some 50-110 strings on... heavy! The action is now very high, and I can’t even adjust the bridge saddles to go any lower really. Is this common? How can I now get the action lower? The strings are much tighter now though which is good.

 

No, I meant loosening the truss rod a bit while using the SAME strings you already had detuned. That would increase the relief a bit and reduce the buzz somewhat, and *might* be enough. 

By detuning the strings, you reduced their pull, so by reducing the pull of the truss rod by the same amount (ish) you could get to a position where the bass plays well again. However with the lower tuning the strings may need a bit more room to vibrate freely, which is why I said that it *may* be enough to slacken the truss rod a bit. You need to try and see,

If you already changed strings to a thicker gauge, then don't loosen the truss rod: you have higher tension already and if you slacken the truss rod the action will likely get too high.

[mcnach]

6 hours ago, Bean9seventy said:

yeah , truss rod "can" be a tweak too far guys when you are splitting hairs on set up ,, eg the strings might start breaking faster ,, the bridge might start grinding & the fret plate might slowly weep back into its prime default position ,, if in doubt music shops can set the bass to pro bass level ,

shops do good m.o.t.s , that's what i do if i have serious set up issues " i go to denmark st ,, whats left of it #

thanks guys

 

 

what we're talking here is very minor, I don't understand why people are afraid of using the truss rod. It's like being afraid of putting air in your tyres  Sure, you can blow a tyre if you severely overdo it... but be sensible and you'll be ok

[T-Bay]

Digitech drop pedal, a tone down sounds fine, strings usual tension, job done. Much more than a tone and it starts to sound a bit odd.

[Bean9seventy]

14 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

what we're talking here is very minor, I don't understand why people are afraid of using the truss rod. It's like being afraid of putting air in your tyres  Sure, you can blow a tyre if you severely overdo it... but be

14 hours ago, mcnach said:

 

what we're talking here is very minor, I don't understand why people are afraid of using the truss rod. It's like being afraid of putting air in your tyres  Sure, you can blow a tyre if you severely overdo it... but be sensible and you'll be ok

sensible and you'll be ok

if it was bikes we would be talking about cold setting ? ,, sure if you have a tight drop out you can squeeze out the frame ,, but if you get it wrong it can cause other components of the bike to fail / ruin the bike completely , if we think of it as bikes ,, the guy wants a longer chain for a deeper ratio ? ,, we say just change the deepest sprocket  eg one string E to D ,, = DADG because the higher faster gears will cover all the other notes / ratios  ,, and if the guy wants to cold set to "his choice"   this can also include  neck to body re - join adjustments it would be pointless putting a shorter chain back on ,, eg standard tuning back on the bass 

cheers guys 1 day to go before LBGS

14 hours ago, T-Bay said:

Digitech drop pedal, a tone down sounds fine, strings usual tension, job done. Much more than a tone and it starts to sound a bit odd.

 

[Bean9seventy]

5 minutes ago, Bean9seventy said:

if it was bikes we would be talking about cold setting ? ,, sure if you have a tight drop out you can squeeze out the frame ,, but if you get it wrong it can cause other components of the bike to fail / ruin the bike completely , if we think of it as bikes ,, the guy wants a longer chain for a deeper ratio ? ,, we say just change the deepest sprocket  eg one string E to D ,, = DADG because the higher faster gears will cover all the other notes / ratios  ,, and if the guy wants to cold set to "his choice"   this can also include  neck to body re - join adjustments it would be pointless putting a shorter chain back on ,, eg standard tuning back on the bass 

cheers guys 1 day to go before LBGS

 

My lowest natural de tune i had no real major issues with the fret board was Db Ab Db Gb ,, cheers guys