Anyone tilt the top cab in a stack for monitoring purposes? And how?

[DylanB]

I have two lovely Berg 1x12s. I sometimes find myself on small stages in medium sized venues (weddings etc) where there is no PA support for bass. Therefore I need to use both cabs, but due to the size of the stage the monitoring isn’t great (my sound goes directly to the back of my knees/bum).

I want to be able to tilt the top cab upward, to direct some of the higher frequencies towards my ears. See attached photo for a mock-up.

Anyone else do this? If so, what do you use?

I don’t think a Mark Bass style wedge will work here because of the danger of the top cab slipping off the back. I’m thinking I need something with back support, like a Mud Stand: https://www.mudstand.com/buy. Unfortunately they only seem to ship to North America. Any other ideas?

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by DylanB

[Dood]

I have two Berg 112's and have, I think it might be a Stagg Amplifer Stand that sits nicely on top of one and angles up as per your picture. If I can find out what it is (as I don't use backline that often these days at all) I will spot a link

[Dood]

Ahhh that was easy, here it is!

https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/stagg-gas-4-2-guitar-amplifier-stand

 

[Dood]

P.S I think it makes sense to have cabinets facing your ears for monitoring!!

[DylanB]

56 minutes ago, Dood said:

Ahhh that was easy, here it is!

https://www.pmtonline.co.uk/stagg-gas-4-2-guitar-amplifier-stand

 

Many thanks! Will give it a go.

Sometimes even on gigs where I’m going through the PA the sound guys don’t seem to be keen on putting bass through the monitors so this looks like something sensible to have in the back pocket.

I have also been tempted by some of those Mark Bass cabs which have the tilt back built in, but this is a slightly cheaper option 😉

[Frank Blank]

Go FRFR and get a nice tilty monitor...

[hooky_lowdown]

Wouldn't it be easier to put the cabs on top of something, so they're elevated?

[lemmywinks]

I had the MarkBass Club 112 cabs and did exactly this with the top cab which was brilliant for monitoring and made sure the drummer could hear the bass properly too so it's definitely worth doing. I used one of these to rest the amp on the top cab which worked a treat:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/IKEA-BRADA-Laptop-support-black/dp/B00GMM74T0

[Frank Blank]

2 minutes ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Wouldn't it be easier to put the cabs on top of something, so they're elevated?

The excellent (and excellently named) Sebastian Steinberg used to play with his cabinets raised up. When I saw Soul Coughing at The Junction in Cambridge many years ago he had two raised cabinets at 90° to each other at head height, he kind of stood between them. Can’t find a good pic but this is close, not as high here though...

[DylanB]

1 hour ago, hooky_lowdown said:

Wouldn't it be easier to put the cabs on top of something, so they're elevated?

Good question. It may be.

I’m quite tall so it’s going to take a fairly large crate or stand to elevate them to near ear level. So I’m a bit scared of the  height they could fall from. But then I guess the argument is that they're less likely to fall when sitting flat on something.

[lemmywinks]

That's the problem I had on small stages, I'm 6'6" and getting the cab pointing at my ears so I don't have to crank it too high was a priority. If you have the option to tilt at least one cab then it solves a lot of problems. I now use a small wedge monitor which is really flexible in terms of placement on stage.

Edited September 14, 2019 by lemmywinks

[jrixn1]

3 hours ago, Frank Blank said:

Go FRFR and get a nice tilty monitor...

I basically agree with you - but in this instance being FRFR is neither here nor there.  What I mean is some flat-response cabs don't tilt (e.g. Barefaced Big Baby II), and some cabs which tilt aren't flat response (e.g. Hartke Kickback).

@DylanB, I wonder if you can get about 15% more height for free by stacking your cabs vertically instead of horizontally?

Another idea - if your amp has the facility, can you use (non isolating) in-ears to augment the stage sound.   I don't mean a full monitor mix, but just some additional direct bass signal for yourself.  I did this tonight as we were provided with wedges but even so I struggled a bit with clarity.

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by jrixn1

[DylanB]

9 hours ago, jrixn1 said:

@DylanB, I wonder if you can get about 15% more height for free by stacking your cabs vertically instead of horizontally?

Another idea - if your amp has the facility, can you use (non isolating) in-ears to augment the stage sound.   I don't mean a full monitor mix, but just some additional direct bass signal for yourself.  I did this tonight as we were provided with wedges but even so I struggled a bit with clarity.

 

 

Have tried stacking cabs vertically with little effect. Maybe that would reduce the size of crate/stand needed underneath though.

To your other (v good) suggestion, I’m not sure. I’ve never been happy with previous dalliances with IEMs, I suspect I need to bite the bullet and get some proper moulds made.

And yes, IEMs are the full and proper solution to this problem, the issue for me is some of these gigs are fairly basic in terms of gear and set up time. Did one last month with no sound check whatsoever. I just want a basic lo-tech solution which means I can reliably hear myself in these situations.

[Chienmortbb]

This is exactly the problem that Stevie addresses with the BC 1x12 design. By using the horn vertically instead of horizontally you hear more of the mids even end standing in front of the cab. https://www.basschat.co.uk/topic/347017-stevie’s-12”-frfr-cab-build-thread-basschat-cab-v3/page/6/#comments

Edited September 16, 2019 by Chienmortbb

[stevie]

It's not just the orientation of the horn, although that helps. It's also the fact that the HF driver extends quite low and compensates for the lack of mids coming out of the main driver when you're off axis (above or to the side of the cab).

It's the "beaming" at midrange frequencies that causes lack of clarity when you're standing in front of the cab.  Even if you do tilt your cab so that you can hear the mids and highs that are vital for tone definition, the audience will still hear the muffled sound that you are trying to fix. Unless your bass is going through a PA, of course, which is unlikely to suffer from this midrange dispersion problem.

If you don't want to build your own, the only commercial cab  AFAIK that deals with this problem properly is the Fearless F112 3-way cab - which also that also has a tilt facility for good measure.

 

[DylanB]

6 hours ago, stevie said:

It's the "beaming" at midrange frequencies that causes lack of clarity when you're standing in front of the cab.  Even if you do tilt your cab so that you can hear the mids and highs that are vital for tone definition, the audience will still hear the muffled sound that you are trying to fix. Unless your bass is going through a PA, of course, which is unlikely to suffer from this midrange dispersion problem.

 

Excellent info, thank you.

So I’m extremely simple terms, when using a single cab you essentially have to choose whether the player or the audience gets the midrange?

Hopefully mitigated somewhat by the fact I have two cabs, only one of which would be angled.

[Phil Starr]

The problem with raising the cab is that you would lose the reinforcement you get from the floor which acts a bit like a mirror for the lower frequencies. That's less of a problem if you have two cabs of course but you could put a cab on a post with a top hat in each cab or use a speaker stand if you really wanted to do it. Personally I'd go for the Stagg stand and avoid having to modify my cabs.

[Lfalex v1.1]

How about standing the bottom cab (vertically) on the floor for lf reinforcement,  and stick a crate (or whatever you choose) between the upper and lower cabs.

Raises the upper cab for the clarity, keeps the centre of gravity lower than 2 cabs on a crate and retains the lf boundary reinforcement from the floor for the lower cab.

[Chienmortbb]

On 16/09/2019 at 09:24, stevie said:

It's not just the orientation of the horn, although that helps. It's also the fact that the HF driver extends quite low and compensates for the lack of mids coming out of the main driver when you're off axis (above or to the side of the cab).

It's the "beaming" at midrange frequencies that causes lack of clarity when you're standing in front of the cab.  Even if you do tilt your cab so that you can hear the mids and highs that are vital for tone definition, the audience will still hear the muffled sound that you are trying to fix. Unless your bass is going through a PA, of course, which is unlikely to suffer from this midrange dispersion problem.

If you don't want to build your own, the only commercial cab  AFAIK that deals with this problem properly is the Fearless F112 3-way cab - which also that also has a tilt facility for good measure.

 

Of course, with the horn in either orientation, it can only direct the frequencies  that are already there. I think the rotation of the horn vertical is the cherry on the cake. 

[yorks5stringer]

I always dig out this photo when the question is raised:

[stewblack]

6 hours ago, yorks5stringer said:

I always dig out this photo when the question is raised:

Wonderful! Is it heavy? How long did it take you to make? 

[stevie]

12 hours ago, stewblack said:

Wonderful! Is it heavy? How long did it take you to make? 

Yes, it's really neat!

[Chienmortbb]

6 hours ago, stevie said:

Yes, it's really neat!

I remember that from a thread a couple of years ago. It is a great idea,  as tilting cabs does not make for a good platform for a head. However it does  take up a lot of room on the floor ( I won’t say anything about the cabinets). 

[yorks5stringer]

On 19/09/2019 at 23:02, stewblack said:

Wonderful! Is it heavy? How long did it take you to make? 

Really quick actually. I went to my Bass folder on the Computer, clicked on it , selected the photo and posted it!

Actually can't take any of the credit, seem to think it was off Talkbass many moons ago, so I literally drag it out whenever the subject arises. It seems to have a sticker on the rear left hand side, so that might imply it was a manufactured item?

[dave_bass5]

I get what this thread is about, and can see why its needed, but something about this isnt clear to me.

When i use my rig as the only source, so no PA support, i have to have it loud enough to get out in to the room etc. Not a problem, i can just turn it up, but how does this work if you have half your stack facing your ears? If i was to put my head in front of my cab id either blow my ears out, or at the very least not hear my guitarist on the other side of the stage.

Maybe the above is an over exaggeration, but the question is, dont you have to turn down once the cab is aimed at your head? If so how does that effect the out front mix if you aren't using a PA for support?