Performing solo bass

[Golchen]

[quote name='M4L666' post='365628' date='Dec 29 2008, 05:44 PM']Jesus, I though I was alone using my little finger![/quote]

I am not adverse to RH pinky action myself but then I do play a Chapman stick as well.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Golchen' post='365827' date='Dec 29 2008, 10:26 PM']I am not adverse to RH pinky action myself but then I do play a Chapman stick as well.[/quote]

One bored afternoon when I was 17 or 18 I tried picking with my pinkie (I use the other three fingers anyway, that's just how I learned to pick, although my technique isn't very disciplined!) and found it was easy, but it didn't sound very good - especially picking over the bridge pup - and I got a massive blister, so I stopped.

Don't think I ever did it again.

[urb]

Great thread and one that is due for discussion, all I'll add for now as I have to get an early night, is that I sort of played my first solo bass spot a few weeks ago and really enjoyed it. I'd just played a set with my funk band at this biggish private party and was all packed up but my amp was still set up when these percussionists started jamming, so I grabbed my bass and pulled out all my solo bass stuff I.e. polyrhythmic chord bass grooves, the Garrison 4 finger stuff but really kept it grooving too. Bearing in mind we'd just had everyone dancing with the funk band earlier with some kicking JBs style grooves I took it as a big compliment that I got a goodish crowd boogying on down to just me and some percussion. For me solo bass is great when played with real passion and despite what some have said here about Wooten lacking soul etc and being all about technique really need to see him live. He can play one note and make it groove like crazy and if you have ever witnessed his version of Amazing Grace, in a packed venue, I swear when he hits that groove the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. I recently rediscovered Wooten and I highly recommend his new Groove Workshop DVD. It's packed with over 5 hours of hugely insightful tips and some great solo performances it's top stuff. Long live solo bass alongside all other types of bass playing, it's all good,

M

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='urb' post='365908' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:14 AM']despite what some have said here about Wooten lacking soul etc and being all about technique really need to see him live. He can play one note and make it groove like crazy[/quote]

When he grooves he's amazing, he should do it more often instead of playing a million notes as fast as he can using that horrid-sounding double-thumbing technique he's so fond of that makes every note sound like a tonne of attack noise and little else.

I can admire people who have chops but also the taste and decency to use them where required instead of everywhere. Wooten seems to lack those important characteristics. Maybe he's a bit railroaded by his audiences given that he only really plays to other bass players, so perhaps I'm being unfair. But bloody hell he can make some bad sounds, and he even puts them out on CD!

[velvetkevorkian]

I've never seen Wooten solo (except on t'internet) but I have seen him with the Flecktones and he was quite frankly a groove monster. I was expecting all out double thumbing carnage but he supported the band wonderfully. I wouldn't judge him solely on the umpteen million performances of Classical Thump on youtube.

[thisnameistaken]

If any "popular" bassist had put out records featuring such horrid noises he would've been roundly castigated by his peers in spite of anything musical he'd produced previously. Wooten only gets away with it because he's one of those few musicians who is better known for his instructional videos than he is for his playing.

Maybe that's not Vic's fault - and I do think he's a rocking bassist when he's being a bassist - but let's face it he does spend a large proportion of his time either showing off his chops or composing elevator music. If he's a sh*t composer he should leave it to people who are good at it.

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='Oscar South' post='365008' date='Dec 28 2008, 06:03 PM']... what I do is very basic and most people could do it with a week or so of working on it, one day when I've got more free time and less 'regular bass playing' commitments I'm going to try and take it further.[/quote]

I think you probably underestimate yourself... I've been playing bass on the level of one of your "Fender Players", albeit a MusicMan and a G&L, for many years and I can safely say that it would take me a lot longer than a week or so to get to any kind of point of playing solo. I haven't the slightest idea how you tap, play harmonics etc. and, much more relevant, I wouldn't know what to actually play - or where to start to learn. You've probably spent a lot of time listening and thinking about it, so don't dismiss your skills so lightly. Do what you do and enjoy it (and the praise)

[thepurpleblob]

[quote name='velvetkevorkian' post='365931' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:15 AM']I've never seen Wooten solo (except on t'internet) but I have seen him with the Flecktones and he was quite frankly a groove monster. I was expecting all out double thumbing carnage but he supported the band wonderfully. I wouldn't judge him solely on the umpteen million performances of Classical Thump on youtube.[/quote]

I must admit I went to see the Flecktones and left halfway through. One of the most boring bands I have ever seen - and I've seen a lot.

To be fair though, I went to see Wooten. That hillbilly stuff (or whatever it is) is not my sort of thing so I probably went for all the wrong reasons.

[jimmybass04]

i love playing solo bass,and got so tired of going to jam sessions wherepeople would give you this weird look when you asked if you could play a solo spot, i think they dont know what to expect, and most are surprised when you play something melodic(from a bass eh, i dont believe it) so i usually sing something to get them warmed up,
and once iv got them i can do what i want.
I try to get people to forget the instrument and listen to the music, its all about the music.
I love to groove with a band and be very supportive,but its great to do your own thing and be happy doing it.
on you tube type (just the way it is eab) is a clip of some solo stuff links i done ages ago and im still having fun
on the bass. what a great way to help pay the rent. cheers.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='TKenrick' post='365445' date='Dec 29 2008, 01:19 PM']When I hear Michael Manring, I hear music, not chops:
[/quote]

Hmmmm...it's definitely a tune.

Maybe it it was played on a piano or something it would flow a bit more, or be a little more interesting.

IMO - solo bass stuff... once the novelty of 'ooh... they're doing that on a bass!' wears off, I find myself wishing I could hear another instrument play it, or a band.

I can't be bothered to cut it slack just because it's being played on a bass... if you know what I mean.

Yours, WoT
c/o a big crowd of Fender players

[jimmybass04]

thats cool, i know what you mean.

[xgsjx]

I enjoy a bit of solo bass but don't do it enough.

One of the first solo pieces I did was my own transcription of Fur Elise after having learned it on piano. I need to dig that out again.

I tried learning NV43345 & 3A17 7718 by Billy Sheehan (both from the Talas Years album), but I never managed to play either of them the full way thru. Did learn ShyBoy tho.
However, attempting these did learn me how to hold chords & tap, play harmonic scales & a few other techniques.

I'd love to learn some more solo bass stuff as what I have just now is very little & I haven't gotten around to looking for any transcriptions (too busy on here you see! ).

[urb]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='365912' date='Dec 30 2008, 12:22 AM']When he grooves he's amazing, he should do it more often instead of playing a million notes as fast as he can using that horrid-sounding double-thumbing technique he's so fond of that makes every note sound like a tonne of attack noise and little else.

I can admire people who have chops but also the taste and decency to use them where required instead of everywhere. Wooten seems to lack those important characteristics. Maybe he's a bit railroaded by his audiences given that he only really plays to other bass players, so perhaps I'm being unfair. But bloody hell he can make some bad sounds, and he even puts them out on CD![/quote]

Fair enough but for my sins I've been a Flecktones fan since around 1990 so I've been checking Vic out for a hell of a long time and like to think I've heard him play just about everything in dozens of different contexts, you are singling out just on small aspect of his playing, he's a master of dynamics, rhythm and his 'internal clock' is just plain scary. He's a very fine fretless player and can completely support a groove, play for the song etc etc without doing a single fill for the duration. Sadly the stuff that gets posted on Youtube from bootlegged videos of his live shows always focus on his solo spots which invariably feature his patented double thumb stuff, but while I can agree listening to more than a few second of that can be quite annoying, the level he has it at means he can play very musically with it, but if you still hate it fine, it's not the point I'm trying to make.

Wooten also happens to be one of the finest fingerstyle players around as well and to be honest that's the stuff he does that I love best, no idea if you have seen this clip but this is a wicked solo off his video from ten years ago, that does feaure some double thumb stuff but in a subtle, utterly grooving way and the tune at the end 'Sex In A Pan' in part 2 is just damn funky and beautifully executed, sorry i couldn't find the whole clip on its own but the instructional stuff on the start of part oneis really good as well i hope you learn something from it!

part one


part two

[Stuart Clayton]

[quote name='urb' post='366017' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:32 AM']Fair enough but for my sins I've been a Flecktones fan since around 1990 so I've been checking Vic out for a hell of a long time and like to think I've heard him play just about everything in dozens of different contexts, you are singling out just on small aspect of his playing, he's a master of dynamics, rhythm and his 'internal clock' is just plain scary. He's a very fine fretless player and can completely support a groove, play for the song etc etc without doing a single fill for the duration. Sadly the stuff that gets posted on Youtube from bootlegged videos of his live shows always focus on his solo spots which invariably feature his patented double thumb stuff, but while I can agree listening to more than a few second of that can be quite annoying, the level he has it at means he can play very musically with it, but if you still hate it fine, it's not the point I'm trying to make.

Wooten also happens to be one of the finest fingerstyle players around as well and to be honest that's the stuff he does that I love best, no idea if you have seen this clip but this is a wicked solo off his video from ten years ago, that does feaure some double thumb stuff but in a subtle, utterly grooving way and the tune at the end 'Sex In A Pan' in part 2 is just damn funky and beautifully executed, sorry i couldn't find the whole clip on its own but the instructional stuff on the start of part oneis really good as well i hope you learn something from it!

part one


part two
[/quote]

Must agree with Urb here - Victor's fingerstyle work is superb and the clip of 'Sex In A Pan' shows just how creative he can be with the technique.

I've recently become a huge fan of Michael Manring's playing, particularly his all solo bass album Soliloquy. I'd like to point out this tune, 'Selene' from the album, which in my opinion is an utterly beautiful piece of music:

[url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6eTBc7aWBGw"]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6eTBc7aWBGw[/url]

I think Manring's use of altered tunings is one of the most innovative things happening in the solo bass world at the moment.

Stu

[steve-soar]

[quote name='TKenrick' post='365445' date='Dec 29 2008, 01:19 PM']For me this sums it all up perfectly.

I don't think the quantity of strings is an issue - the vast majority of guitarists have 6 strings, and therefore all have the same opportunity to create art or self-indulgent w*nkery as they see fit. For me the issue is distinguishing the concept of 'solo bass' from that of the 'bass solo'. I tend to regard 'solo bass' as a format through which bass players can create their own music without the need for other band members, which shifts their role into that of [i]musician[/i] rather than 'just' bass player. I don't believe that solo bass playing has to necessarily be equated with a vast quantity of notes-per-second, although this is entirely dependent on the player.

When I hear Michael Manring, I hear music, not chops:


Conversely, when I hear Wooten or Adam Nitti, I hear technique, not music. My personal preference, regardless of the instrument, is to be intrigued by melody and harmony, not be intimidated by technique.[/quote]Check out the guy watching at 1 min 25 sec (I love you Michael, can I have your babies?).
It is a very imaginative and skillfuly executed piece and it would be very intesting to see him play this through a massive PA at say Creamfields with maybe Underworld putting some elecrtonic textures in the background.






"The young of the beaver stay with the mother until around 12 months, at which time they travel downstream to find a mate. Once a suitable mate has been found, a complex courtship begins with the male beaver saying "I've got two tickets for a Michael Manring solo performance, I was wandering if you would like to go?"
Rejected, with severe injuries, the male beaver has to travel further downstream in search of a soul mate."

Edited December 30, 2008 by steve-soar

[ARGH]

[quote name='BeLow' post='370317' date='Jan 4 2009, 08:30 PM'][url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7810451.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7810451.stm[/url]

Quite close to home for me[/quote]
Great..Beavers up the Tamar.

After those Ecomentalists released wild boar up in Exmoor 4 years back...is this another mad idea to bring retronature back to places that couldnt,shouldnt,and dont bloody want to,sustain it.

P.s. Wild Boar ,full grown are lethal,I cant wait for a little kid to be attacked around High Bray...And THEN where are the greenies?

[jakenewmanbass]

Watching the videos of Victor Wooten that Urb posted (thanks) something occured to me.
If you found yourself with that amount of music flowing from your imagination and had the time the inclination and the facility to execute those ideas would you really say to yourself "well that's not proper bass playing so I'm going to stop it at once"?
would you f***, you'd find as many ways to play stuff and be as inventive and creative and pushing to the boundaries of your ability as you possibly could. It's human nature to do so.

Victor is a fantastically inventive and able musician and he's humble. He knows whats important in bass playing and will do that when required better than any single individual on this board can.

I would not choose to listen to some of the things he plays but that is true of many artists of all types. I think people should really be less critical of excellence and just give credit where credit is due and Victor Wooten and many like him are worthy of plenty of credit. If you don't like it don't listen, but come on, don't be stupid enough to denigrate just because it's not to your taste.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='ARGH' post='370325' date='Jan 4 2009, 08:40 PM']I cant wait for a little kid to be attacked around High Bray[/quote]

You are a sick minded individual at times.

I really do think that is a f***ing stupid thing to wish for.

Edited January 4, 2009 by jakesbass

[6stringbassist]

You really can't beat jazz standards for solo bass, with a bit of practise you can play chords, melody and bass line.

Ballads work best played [i]freely[/i], songs like 'Autumn leaves', and 'When I fall in love'.

Edited January 4, 2009 by 6stringbassist

[velvetkevorkian]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='370345' date='Jan 4 2009, 09:02 PM']Watching the videos of Victor Wooten that Urb posted (thanks) something occured to me.
If you found yourself with that amount of music flowing from your imagination and had the time the inclination and the facility to execute those ideas would you really say to yourself "well that's not proper bass playing so I'm going to stop it at once"?
would you f***, you'd find as many ways to play stuff and be as inventive and creative and pushing to the boundaries of your ability as you possibly could. It's human nature to do so.

Victor is a fantastically inventive and able musician and he's humble. He knows whats important in bass playing and will do that when required better than any single individual on this board can.

I would not choose to listen to some of the things he plays but that is true of many artists of all types. I think people should really be less critical of excellence and just give credit where credit is due and Victor Wooten and many like him are worthy of plenty of credit. If you don't like it don't listen, but come on, don't be stupid enough to denigrate just because it's not to your taste.[/quote]
Amen.

Anyone interested in solo bass could do worse than check out [url="http://www.michaeldimin.com/lessons.htm"]Mike Dimin's website.[/url] He has a couple of jazz tunes arranged for solo bass- his arrangement of Autumn Leaves is rather nice, and a good reminder of how much can be done on an old fashioned 4 string.

[The Funk]

[quote name='fragility' post='365421' date='Dec 29 2008, 12:41 PM']I always think this sort of thing is sort of a non-debate...to me, there's room for everything and I might not always chose to listen to every type of playing, but ultimately I'd rather there was more diversity out there, and I can appreciate most types of playing. I'm glad that all these musicians do their own thing and play what they want rather than playing what anyone else tells them they should.[/quote]

Agreed. I'd like to see more bass & drum duos but I think I'm the only one!

[mcgraham]

[quote]Agreed. I'd like to see more bass & drum duos but I think I'm the only one![/quote]

+1! Once I get my new bass I'd like to do some work with a percussionist. Sort of coffee shop/acoustic stuff in the same vein as Matt Garrison with Arto Tunbuchian (sp?). Really tasteful chilled stuff. Something you can listen to intently for the sake of it, and also something that's relaxed enough to just have on in the background.

Anyone know any decent percussionists in Nottingham?

Mark

[Bilbo]

Like many of us, as a developing player, I have looked at the solo bass videos and listened to the solo bass cds, just exploring the potential of my chosen instrument. I once recorded a short Vivaldi piece (Concerto in D 2nd Movement) on double tracked (fretted) bass – it kind of worked – and learned Jeff Berlin’s ‘Dixie’, Hamm’s ‘Country Song’, a solo by Jerry Peek (Steve Morse Band) and a thing by Dave Pegg (couldn’t do any of them now). But, over the years what I found was, however hard I tried, I could never make any of the music in question sound better because it was played on the bass. To me, it always sounded like it’s only value was as a display of motor skills; acrobatics not aestheics. So I stopped.

Having an eye on the world of bass, I have heard most of these soloists over the years but have found only limited successes within the ‘solo bass’ genre. Michael Manring, for instance, is a genius. His concept is entirely unique (due to his use of open-tuinings and dedicated technology) and his compositions are sophsticated and musical. He uses the specific tone of his instrument(s) to create a vocabularly that is integrated and entirely congruent. What is more, if you listen to his work with Montreux or Michael Hedges, he is a mature, professional musician, perfectly capable of playing the gig and taking a back seat when the music demands it. Wooten I like less – his technique is astonishing but I don’t buy anything he is on because I generally don’t like the music he plays (I have one Flecktones CD I listened to twice but I have never gone back to it). But he is a great player, that cannot be denied.

My feeling on the ‘solo bass’ genre is that it is an attractive place to go if you want to draw attention to yourself as a performer (not necessarily as a musician) and for pointless grandstanding (pointless unless you are selling gear!!?). I am not saying the genre itself is pointless but I do think it is full of misguided intentions – all glamour and no content. For me, as I have matured, studying music is about the music as a whole and not about the bass and, as a result, I have found myself listening more and more to the timbres of instrument and the way they interact, harmonically and sonically. The specific sound of a trumpet in unison with a soprano saxophone or a trombone line doubled by a flute presents the composer with opportunities for expression that are matched only by the listeners potential for delight. The colours available are far reaching and multi-faceted. That is not to say that the bass has no such potential: Manring has proved that. But many of the solo bass pieces I hear would sound better on the piano or classical guitar – even if they would be unsuccessful or, at best, unremarkable compositions for either instrument.

In a nutshell, when looking at a performance, I always ask myself, ‘is this music being orchestrated in the best way possible’? Playing stuff, however, melodic, on a solo electric bass, with 4 or 14 strings, rarely provides the answer I would want it to.

[mcgraham]

[quote]But many of the solo bass pieces I hear would sound better on the piano or classical guitar[/quote]

Agreed. Many solo bass pieces are (or were) better off played on these instruments due to timbre, pitch, how that's recognised by people's ears etc. But should we see these as limitations? Or simply a challenge to write, create and perform music on the bass that suits the timbre of the bass? I like to think the latter.

Mark

[Bilbo]

[quote name='mcgraham' post='370766' date='Jan 5 2009, 11:40 AM']Agreed. Many solo bass pieces are (or were) better off played on these instruments due to timbre, pitch, how that's recognised by people's ears etc. But should we see these as limitations? Or simply a challenge to write, create and perform music on the bass that suits the timbre of the bass? I like to think the latter.[/quote]

100% agree - if it works better on the bass, it should be played on the bass. Most of Manrings stuff couldn't be played on anything other than his Hyperbass.