jakenewmanbass Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='6stringbassist' post='370328' date='Jan 4 2009, 08:43 PM']It's a very poorly titled question really, ideally you should have different genres listed, so Mark King would be under pop, and Dave Holland would be under jazz, but Dave Holland still wouldn't win because Lawrence Cottle is tons better. Unless of course the question was 'Who's the best British bassist, currently living in New York, who's 1st name is Dave ?'.[/quote] well made points, re the title Lawrence is a great player but again IMO Dave Holland is in another league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hi Jake, I agree that he is a jazz giant, playing with Miles, Shorter and Blade but you can't say that he is the best, because it is so objective. Being the best in other peoples eyes (ears), is about how that musician makes them feel. He does make me feel spaced out though. Yum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron The Shelf Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Two favourites from the punk era - Paul Gray (Eddie & The Hot Rods and, more impressively the stuff he did whilst in The Damned) and of course Jean-Jacques Burnel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
6stringbassist Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='370403' date='Jan 4 2009, 09:55 PM']well made points, re the title Lawrence is a great player but again IMO Dave Holland is in another league.[/quote] But then again, he'd come into the jazz upright section, so Lawrence might still win it. But has anyone mentioned Janek Gwizdala yet ?, now he really is, to me anyway, awe inspiring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) [quote name='steve-soar' post='370458' date='Jan 4 2009, 10:44 PM']Hi Jake, I agree that he is a jazz giant, playing with Miles, Shorter and Blade but you can't say that he is the best, because it is so objective. Being the best in other peoples eyes (ears), is about how that musician makes them feel. He does make me feel spaced out though. Yum. [/quote] you mean subjective...? I agree, hence the insertion of "IMO". However I will assert that he is because I think so, and tongue firmly in cheek I believe myself to be a far more eloquent arbiter of taste and artistic savant than any of you Edited January 4, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-soar Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 (edited) No, I mean objective, because an opinion is a state of the individuals fact based system, ie, that they know who they think is the best. You can not have a truly fact based opinion of what is better in musical terms, it is far too abstract. Edited January 5, 2009 by steve-soar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRinser Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 In my opinion... Janek Gwizdala and Stu Zender. Not necessarily in that order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='steve-soar' post='370525' date='Jan 4 2009, 11:59 PM']No, I mean objective, because an opinion is a state of the individuals fact based system, ie, that they know who they think is the best. You can not have a truly fact based opinion of what is better in musical terms, it is far too abstract. [/quote] I may be wrong in my understanding of the terms but I believed subjective to be 'from within' and objective 'without of' one's perspective. Correct me if I'm wrong as I really am interested to know exactly. Edit: For the avoidance of doubt I went and looked it up. It appears you have it the wrong way round objectivity requires facts, subjectivity is opinion based see below: "KEY TERMS! OBJECTIVITY & SUBJECTIVITY The difference between these two important ideas is the difference between fact and opinion. Facts are objective and provably true; however, if no clear facts exist about a topic, then a series of balanced opinions needs to be produced to allow the reader to make up his or her mind; opinions are subjective ideas held by individuals and so are always biased. If unbalanced opinions are presented as if they are facts, they act as propaganda or persuasion, e.g. a newspaper headline might state: "Youngsters are the prime cause of trouble in this area". This is presented as an objective fact but is clearly a subjective opinion. An objective piece of information, therefore, needs either to be the whole truth and at least be unbiased or balanced, whereas a subjective point of view is biased because it is either not the complete picture or it is merely a viewpoint or expression of feelings. When studying literature, it is best to be objective when you consider a text's qualities. Of course, literature read for pleasure should be approached subjectively as this allows you to 'be there' with the characters, feeling involved with the plot and so forth. But when you discuss literature for an essay, it is far safer to 'stand back' and see it objectively for what it is: no more than an attempt to engage and hold your attention, build trust in its writer, and persuade you to a way of thinking - the writer's way! Looked at objectively, a text is no more than a 'vehicle' for communicating a persuasive message. This applies to characters and settings, too - all highly compelling and believable 'vehicles' for the writer to convince you to think his or her way!" Edited January 5, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinman Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [quote name='BassBus' post='369310' date='Jan 3 2009, 03:51 PM']I can't believe no-one has mentioned [size=7] [color="#FF0000"]MIKE RUTHERFORD[/color][/size][size=7]!!!!!!!!!!!!!! [/size] [/quote] At last!!! You Sir, have taste Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnnylager Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [quote name='crez5150' post='366195' date='Dec 30 2008, 01:16 PM']What about that bloke who was in Bros?? [/quote] Aye that Ken off Bros nobbed Danni Minogue and almost bankrupted his band mates. Worthy of inclusion just for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassmanc Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [quote name='6stringbassist' post='370328' date='Jan 4 2009, 08:43 PM']It's a very poorly titled question really, ideally you should have different genres listed, so Mark King would be under pop, and Dave Holland would be under jazz, but Dave Holland still wouldn't win because Lawrence Cottle is tons better. Unless of course the question was 'Who's the best British bassist, currently living in New York, who's 1st name is Dave ?'.[/quote] Nail on the head hear, many people are quick to judge Mark King as a pop artist - sure that's where he made his money, but has no one out there ever hear of "The Early Years", or even the recordings L42 did of "Foundation and Empire"? They started out as an instrumental Jazz group, but made no money doing that....but if you think Mark King can't play Jazz, sorry - he was born doing that (and if you ever see him play the drums live you'll have to re-think your list of the best drummers too!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassmanc Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I was looking for a little smiley holding a wooden spoon and stirring??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamster Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Normferatu's the best - at what he does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merton Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Glad Alun gave Phil Mulford a mention! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Jake, any suggestions on a Dave Holland album that I should assimilate into my brain? Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='mcgraham' post='370828' date='Jan 5 2009, 12:37 PM']Jake, any suggestions on a Dave Holland album that I should assimilate into my brain?[/quote] Any of the attached...... Music from Two Basses (with Barre Phillips) - 1971 - ECM Conference of the Birds - 1972 - ECM Cloud Dance - 1975 - ECM Sam Rivers/Dave Holland, Vol. 1 - 1976 - Improvising Artists Sam Rivers/Dave Holland, Vol. 2 - 1976 - Improvising Artists Emerald Tears - 1977 - ECM Life Cycle - 1982 - ECM Jumpin' In - 1983 - ECM Seeds of Time - 1984 - ECM The Razor's Edge - 1987 - ECM Triplicate - 1988 - ECM Extensions - 1989 - ECM Question and Answer - 1990 - collaboration with Pat Metheny and Roy Haynes Ones All - 1993 - Intuition Dream of the Elders - 1995 - ECM Points of View - 1998 - ECM Prime Directive - 2000 - ECM Not for Nothin' - 2001 - ECM What Goes Around - 2002 - ECM Extended Play: Live at Birdland - 2003 - ECM Overtime - 2005 - Dare2 Critical Mass - 2006 - Dare2 Pass It On - 2008 - Dare2 In groups or as sideman Miles Davis, Filles de Kilimanjaro (1968) Miles Davis, In a Silent Way (1969) Miles Davis, 1969 Miles - Festiva De Juan Pins (1969) Miles Davis, Bitches Brew (1969) Miles Davis, Live at the Fillmore East, March 7, 1970: It's About That Time (1970) Miles Davis, Miles Davis at Fillmore: Live at the Fillmore East (1970) Circle, A.R.C. (1970) ECM Circle, Paris Concert (1971) ECM Anthony Braxton, New York, Fall 1974 (1974) Arista Anthony Braxton, Five Pieces (1975) (1975) Arista Anthony Braxton, Anthony Braxton Live (1975) Arista Anthony Braxton, The Montreux/Berlin Concerts [live] (1975) Arista Anthony Braxton, Quartet (Dortmund) [live] (1976) HatART Kenny Wheeler, Music For LArge and Small Ensembles Kenny Wheeler, Gnu High (1975) ECM Kenny Wheeler, Deer Wan (1977) ECM Gateway, Gateway (1975) ECM Gateway, Gateway 2 (1977) ECM Gateway, Homecoming (1994) ECM Gateway, In the Moment (1994) ECM Kenny Wheeler, Angel Song (1997) ECM Bill Frisell, Bill Frisell with Dave Holland and Elvin Jones (2001) Nonesuch Scolohofo, Oh! (2003) Blue Note Records Tomasz Stańko, Balladyna (1976) ECM 1071 PS This discography is SOOOOOOOOO incomplete!!!! Edited January 5, 2009 by bilbo230763 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcgraham Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [quote]Any of the attached......[/quote] *sigh* I was hoping for a few more than that list Bilbo... (Thanks!) Isn't that awesome though? That one guy has featured on all of that material? Inspirational in itself... Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='mcgraham' post='370828' date='Jan 5 2009, 12:37 PM']Jake, any suggestions on a Dave Holland album that I should assimilate into my brain? Mark[/quote] Bilbo has kindly done it Mark so thanks for that Bilbo. I think Dave is at his improvisational and support best with Kenny Wheeler (helped by the fact that I think Kenny is a compositional genius) They have an affinity for each others gifts that make the music awe inspiring. My fave albums are Music for large and small ensembles, Angel Song and Flutterby Butterfly. Also the Metheny and Roy Haynes Question and answer Bilbo also mentioned is great. Edited January 5, 2009 by jakesbass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [quote name='jakesbass' post='370902' date='Jan 5 2009, 01:57 PM']Bilbo has kindly done it Mark so thanks for that Bilbo. I think Dave is at his improvisational and support best with Kenny Wheeler (helped by the fact that I think Kenny is a compositional genius) They have an affinity for each others gifts that make the music awe inspiring. My fave albums are Music for large and small ensembles, Angel Song and Flutterby Butterfly. Also the Metheny and Roy Haynes Question and answer Bilbo also mentioned is great.[/quote] You're right, Jake. You are me. Music For Large & Small is unquestionably one of my favourite LPs of all time (saw the band doing it live at Cardiff St David's Hall), I have written lyrics to 'Everybody's Song But My Own' off 'Flutterby Butterfly' (and done a gig with Stan Sultzman who is on that CD) and am even on the audience in the BBCs video of the Metheny/Holland/Haynes gig at Brecon! I have 'Angel Song' but haven't got into it as much as you clearly have. Are you stalking me or am I stalking you? PS - Mark. I would recommend Dave Holland's 'Extensions' CD as a potential start. 'Razor's Edge' is also great, as is 'Seeds of Time'. Other great sideman gigs include 'So Near, So Far' by Joe Henderson (another of my top 5), Joe Lovano's 'From The Soul' or 'Trio Fasconation Vol 1 & 2' (these two will demand a little more of you), Gary Burton's 'Like Minds' or Circle's 'Paris Concert' (marvelous). One of Holland's strengths is his consistency so, if any of teh list I copied takes your fancy, you will get a good insight into where he is coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tauzero Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [quote name='6stringbassist' post='370223' date='Jan 4 2009, 07:14 PM']I totally agree with you, I'm a huge fan of Mark King, he's probably the biggest influence on many players aged 35 upwards.[/quote] 35 downwards, surely? I doubt you'd find many 50somethings who had Mark King as their biggest influence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dubs Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 I can’t believe Andy Rourke hasn’t had a bigger mention. Amazing bass player. Some of the lines he came up with for The Smiths were fantastic; so melodic, intricate, technical, and musically sound all at the same time. For those who don’t listen to The Smiths, borrow one of their compilation albums off someone or get it on a cheeky download (who gives a f*** cos all the royalties go to Morrissey anyway) and have a listen. The most recent one is great – [i]The Sound Of The Smiths[/i]. It's hard to judge what's the "best" attribute for a bass player, but Andy Rourke would get my vote above 99% of other bass players mentioned in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YouMa Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Rourke was wicked plus he was on smack a lot of the time and no one even noticed,i should imagine playing on heroin is quite an arduous experience.How the hell did he play so well on girl afraid while being strung out,amazing and very underated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sgt-pluck Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 (edited) [quote name='benwhiteuk' post='371208' date='Jan 5 2009, 06:14 PM']I can’t believe Andy Rourke hasn’t had a bigger mention. Amazing bass player. [b]Some of the lines he came up with for The Smiths[/b] were fantastic; so melodic, intricate, technical, and musically sound all at the same time.[/quote] Andy Rourke is possibly the single most influential bass player on me personally, and no question that the guy could play - but is it not true that it was actually Jonny Marr that wrote most of his lines? Pluck Edited January 5, 2009 by sgt-pluck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakenewmanbass Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [quote name='bilbo230763' post='370950' date='Jan 5 2009, 02:38 PM']You're right, Jake. You are me.[/quote] hehe... told you... now get my goatee off [quote name='bilbo230763' post='370950' date='Jan 5 2009, 02:38 PM']One of Holland's strengths is his consistency.....[/quote] I know it's not quite what you meant but: I was once talking to Mike Walker who had recently (to our conversation) gigged with Kenny Wheeler. Dave Holland was also on the gig, Mike picked him (Dave) up from the airport to transport him to the gig. Mike described his playing as follows: "I felt like I could walk up to him and hit him with a sledge hammer and he wouldn't drop a beat" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 [quote name='sgt-pluck' post='371308' date='Jan 5 2009, 07:53 PM']....but is it not true that it was actually Jonny Marr that wrote most of his lines? Pluck[/quote] No Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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