Speaker advice for 1x10 or 1x12 cab

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

 

Over 100hz, the higher the max SPL line the better, because it means the speaker is more efficient (louder).

You should change the graph scale to show only up to 250Hz, as above that the software isn't accurate. Sensitivity is  most important between 50 and 90Hz, as that's where power demands on the amp are highest.

- Celestion Pulse 12/ bl12-200x (RED) : doesn't excel but ticks all the boxes, decent loud, spike over 2khz, not too bassy.

Looks good to me.

- Beyma SM212 (BLUE): I see why a lot of DIYers like it, plenty of bass which will allow to make the enclosure as little as 35litres without compromising on bass. BUT, it doesn't have the spike at 2000hz, and I'm afraid it will sound too clinical/hi-fi.

I'd only use it when crossed over to a midrange driver no higher than 2kHz.

- Basslite s2010 (GREEN): this one was one of my first speaker considered, but when I modeled it I thought it looked terrible - the quietest of all, slight dip in the mids and oscillating spikes on the higher frequency. But a lot of people seem to love it and recommend it. Why?

Maximum SPL is low because it only has a 150w voice coil. For your purposes it would probably suffice. People who like it probably mean that they like it better than the OEM driver they used it to replace, and that's logical, because it's a better driver than most OEM tens.

- Eminence Beta 12-A 2 (GREY): I recently discovered it, it's a PA speaker but recommended for bass too. it is super loud (max SPL 122!). Not my first choice, but an interesting one on the max SPL side.

It's not just for PA. As far as that goes the Beyma has specs that are much more PA oriented. That's typical of most European manufacturers.

American and British bass drivers, like Eminence, Celestion and Fane, all evolved from guitar drivers. In the 1960s none of them even made real bass drivers, and guitar drivers weren't called guitar drivers, they were all called musical instrument drivers. When bass drivers were created in the 1970s and beyond American and British designers tried to retain as much as possible the midrange response of those earlier musical instrument drivers. European manufacturers didn't have that experience to draw on, nor much in the way of musical instrument OEM business in their home countries, so they went after the PA driver market.

[Dan Dare]

That's very interesting, Bill, especially the reason why European manufacturers concentrated on the PA driver market. 

I understand that you may not wish to answer this question (I appreciate that you've done your research/experimentation in developing your cabinet designs and may well not wish to give away your knowledge), but could I ask which 10" and 12" drivers you favour for bass guitar (assuming they are mounted in suitable cabs of course)?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I use Eminence exclusively. My Jack 12 is loaded with a 3012HO, my Jack 15 with a 3015. My Jack 10 PA mains use 2510s and NSD 2005 compression drivers, my T39 subs use 3012LFs. My Wedgehorn 6 floor monitors use Alpha 6s. If I was on your side of the pond where Eminence is more expensive than here I'd probably use European woofers in my PA gear.

[Chienmortbb]

12 hours ago, Lespaul1 said:

I have also modeled these speakers on a 36 liters cab (I'm looking for a compact size) tuned at 48hz.

The SM212 was used in Phil Starr's 30 litre cab and works surprisingly well, but the last time we discussed it, he said a 35 litre cab would probably be better. Also look at the cone excursion graphs and air velocity. As a rule, try for sub 20 on air velocity.

[Dan Dare]

17 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

I use Eminence exclusively. My Jack 12 is loaded with a 3012HO, my Jack 15 with a 3015. My Jack 10 PA mains use 2510s and NSD 2005 compression drivers, my T39 subs use 3012LFs. My Wedgehorn 6 floor monitors use Alpha 6s. If I was on your side of the pond where Eminence is more expensive than here I'd probably use European woofers in my PA gear.

Thanks Bill. That's generous of you. Eminence is becoming increasingly available here and prices aren't bad.

[Phil Starr]

You are getting great advice btw. 

You've hit the barrier of taste I think at this point. You can see the advantages of a speaker with better excursion, the effects of cabinet size and so on.  the question is what you want to get out of this. Is the extra bass of some of the designs important to you or can you afford to sacrifice that for other things? Speaker design is like squeezing a balloon a bit, as soon as you change one thing something pops up elsewhere.

I think you've come a long way, you've clearly made the Pulse the one to beat and it's a good choice given you aren't intending to put a huge amount of power through it. you can see why the Beyma was so attractive. With Qts of 0.38 it is neither over nor under damped and so gives a fairly flat response in a range of cabs. The extra excursion (Xmax) is what makes the maximum SPL look so good but you aren't going to put 350w through it. You might be better off seeing what the spl is at the maximum power of your amp and comparing that.

I'm glad you stumbled on the Beta 12A2 I love the look of the big wide upper peak in it's response. Eminence are just a little more expensive over here but one of the advantages of Eminence is that they don't change their designs too often and replacements and re-cones are possible if they go wrong somewhere down the line and they have proven longevity. A really safe choice. I think of them as being like Levi's, if you can't be bothered to shop around you know you are buying a quality product which won't date or let you down. Mind you I've had no hint of trouble from the Beyma's. B&C, Celestion are good too.

Of the speakers you've looked at the Beyma is going to give you the most bass and the flattest response. In a 50l cab it doesn't sound 'hi fi', at low levels it sounds clean, unremarkable, the top end is there but more laid back than most commercial cabs, cranked up it sounds immense, huge but IMO it needs a bit of mid boost to cut through the mix and in a small space the bass needs trimming. The Eminence 12A2 is going to sound quite old school, in a practical sized box you'll get the 100Hz boost and that midrange boost as well, a smiley faced eq in fact. It's an engaging sound. The Celestion Pulse is going to be somewhere in between but maybe more similar to the Eminence. you could make a good argument for all of these speakers but it looks like a 12 is going to be your thing.

 

[Lespaul1]

Hi guys,

I've been really busy and didn't reply back in the thread. I have anyway done more homework adding the B&C 12CL64 to the mix (thanks Phil for the shout earlier in the thread) and realised an issue with the designs above: the max power that a single 12" can take in a vented cab. In winISD simulations above the Celestion and the Eminence can take only around 120W. I recently purchased a TC Electronics BQ250 (250W) so the risk of overpushing the driver is a concern.

The  B&C 12CL64 recommends a 64hz tuning frequency and 1.4 ft3 cab ( 39 liters) which makes it really good for a small cab design. I then simulated in WinISD the response with 1.5 ft3 cab and 65hz tuning for all the drivers. The Max power graphs slightly improved for The Celestion and Eminence with the results below

Celestion Pulse in BLUE, Eminence Beta 12A in GREEN and B&C 12CL64 in GREY

The B&C looks really impressive IMO, as it is the loudest of the 3, has a flat frequency response, is able to take a max of 250 W across the whole freq range, and compared to the Eminence and Celestion has an extra db around 60-80hz

  

I'm aware that At this tuning frequency the peak over 100hz is more pronounced for the Emi and the celestion, but is there a recommendation in terms of what frequencies are more desirable in a bass cab? Earlier in the thread it was mentioned the range around 60-90hz, but there was also a suggestion to look at a peak around 100hz.

 

Edited November 3, 2019 by Lespaul1

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I'm not wild about being down 14dB at 50Hz. I'd go with a larger box and lower tuning to get 50Hz no more than --6dB, otherwise you might as well not have an E string. -6dB at 50Hz is my benchmark for a ported bass cab.  As for the peaky response around 100Hz in your examples that's what results in boom. 

[Chienmortbb]

10 hours ago, Lespaul1 said:

Hi guys,

I've been really busy and didn't reply back in the thread. I have anyway done more homework adding the B&C 12CL64 to the mix (thanks Phil for the shout earlier in the thread) and realised an issue with the designs above: the max power that a single 12" can take in a vented cab. In winISD simulations above the Celestion and the Eminence can take only around 120W. I recently purchased a TC Electronics BQ250 (250W) so the risk of overpushing the driver is a concern.

The  B&C 12CL64 recommends a 64hz tuning frequency and 1.4 ft3 cab ( 39 liters) which makes it really good for a small cab design. I then simulated in WinISD the response with 1.5 ft3 cab and 65hz tuning for all the drivers. The Max power graphs slightly improved for The Celestion and Eminence with the results below

Celestion Pulse in BLUE, Eminence Beta 12A in GREEN and B&C 12CL64 in GREY

The B&C looks really impressive IMO, as it is the loudest of the 3, has a flat frequency response, is able to take a max of 250 W across the whole freq range, and compared to the Eminence and Celestion has an extra db around 60-80hz

  

I'm aware that At this tuning frequency the peak over 100hz is more pronounced for the Emi and the celestion, but is there a recommendation in terms of what frequencies are more desirable in a bass cab? Earlier in the thread it was mentioned the range around 60-90hz, but there was also a suggestion to look at a peak around 100hz.

 

That proves that all drivers of the same nominal diameter are not equal.

[Phil Starr]

This is where the science doesn't help too much, different experts and different bassists will disagree about what sounds best. I don't like an instrument speaker to be too strong at 50Hz, Those frequencies are poorly heard and few people will notice if you simply filter out at 24db/octave at 50hz. Trading a little loss of the fundamental for less chance of exciting room resonances and cleaning up the onstage sound is something I would do every time. When I designed the Basschat Mk1 speaker a flat response down as low as possible was something people asked for. I've been gigging with that speaker on and off for a few years and I almost always eq out the low bass and then apply a little boost around 80-120 Hz to get the sound I personally prefer. At a recent bass bash we had a shootout which included a Markbass 12 with just such a response, half the room loved it and half hated it. It's a Marmite thing.

I'd say though that you probably don't want anything bigger than a 3db peak at most, that's going to really colour your sound, that disqualifies the Emi in the small cab for me and the Celestion needs a bigger cab too IMO.

WinISD will tell you the response, it can't tell you if you'll like it. The other thing to consider though is that most of the character of the speaker will be in it's mid range response where our hearing is very sensitive. It's worth your while looking carefully at the published responses.

[Lespaul1]

I have some updates! The scope of my project was to create a compact 1x12 cab for bedroom and rehearsals in a funk band. I ended up with a design around 1.7 - 2 cubic feet - depending on the speaker. Living in London I struggle to find space to build the cab myself, so I picked up a used Ashdown VS112 which had  very similar specs to my design, with 1.9 cubic feet internal volume.

I still want to experiment with speakers and specifically with the ones I liked the responses of: Celestion Pulse 12  and some others NEO speakers (lighter so better portability) such as the B&C 12CL64 and LaVoce WSN122.50.

LaVoce went on my list almost by coincidence, I noticed that Orange use this brand in their bass cabs so I modelled a few speakers including the NBASS series and WSN122.50. The WSN122.50 turned out to be quite similar to the B&C with a nice and flat response, but the LaVoce can go a bit lower, has a flatter response but it's a couple of db less loud in the midrange.

Below the WinISD models in a 1.9 ft3 cab.

GREEN - LaVoce WSN122.50

RED - Celestion Pulse 12

GREY - B&C 12CL64

MAX SPL

MAX Power

The B&C would probably have a flatter response with a 1.6 ft3 box as recommended, the LaVoce looks like the one with the flattest response, whilst both can take a bit over 200W of power. 

The Pulse 12 has a peak around 100hz but can take around 100w. 

I picked up a Pulse 12 on eBay and I'll also purchase a LaVoce to compare which type of speaker I like more, flat or with a peak around 100hz.

Do you think those 2db difference between the B&C and LaVoce are going to be noticeable?

[Phil Starr]

If the difference is 2dB you are going to notice testing them next to each other. If you are going to operate both at less than the maximum output then of course you can just turn the amp up a bit. However what you also have to factor in is the balance between bass and the rest of the frequency range. Our ears are so much more sensitive to treble and so insensitive to bass that a more midrange biased cab is likely to sound a bit bass light.  

The other thing to factor in is that the modelling in winisd tells you nothing about the way the midrange is going to sound, it just models the bass response. If you have the frequency response charts we can make an educated guess as to the sound but you won't really know until you try them. Putting them into a ready made cab and experimenting is a good idea Frankly if you order over the internet you can return them un-damaged in the original packaging within 30 days and get a refund so you'll only lose the cost of postage.

[Lespaul1]

I had the time to test further the Celestion BL12-200x (same as Pulse 12) and the LaVoce WSN.122.50

Before I go into details, below the frequency graphs

Celestion

LaVoce WSN122.50

The main difference is that the LaVoce covers more frequencies, it goes a bit lower and overall feels also brighter, more open and snappier. I think this is mainly due to the neo magnet providing different characteristics to the speakers. the graphs shows a peak around 2k of 6-7db so that plays a big part.

The Celestion sounds just a bit darker and overall feels a little harder to push. Almost like there was a cloth in front of the speaker. It also has a bit of a boom when I play around the 10th fret of the low E, nothing particularly harsh but I can feel it, and the graphs actually shows it.

These two speakers are probably at the opposite sides of the 12 inches speakers, with the Celestion probably more suitable for rock and the Lavoce more for genres with a lot of slap. I'll be switching between the two to see what I like most.

I wasn't able to try the B&C 12CL64 as it was more suitable to smaller cabs, but I think it's probably quite similar to the LaVoce. The B&C frequency response shows a similar peak around 2k, although a bit less pronounced than the LaVoce.

The LaVoce is a generic speaker (they have a line specific for bass but they didn't model the same as the WSN122.50), and potentially it's developed as a PA speaker. Is there a particular reason that makes PA speakers unsuitable for bass? Is it just the potential to go as low as 50hz or other reasons? 

Just wondering if I'll be likely to blow the LaVoce quickly...

Thanks!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

3 hours ago, Lespaul1 said:

 Is there a particular reason that makes PA speakers unsuitable for bass?

The main difference between a bass and a PA driver is who it's marketed at. The 3012HO and 2515 in my bass cabs are marketed as PA drivers. I don't look at marketing blurb, I only look at the results.

[Stub Mandrel]

I'm thinking of building a 4-ohm, 1x12 for dual use - as an extension (actually bypassing the internal 8" speaker) for my little orange Crush 25, but also suitable for use with something like a Trace Elliot Elf..

I'm afraid I like a somewhat bottom heavy sound... might the Beyma 212 be what I want?

I've been pondering a 1x12 build for along time and been playing with Winlsd guided by multiple threads on this forum. I've found this thread particularly useful.

Looking at a 60l cab ( a bit bigger than Phil's design, but bout what I want) tuned to 48hz, I get a max SPL of 120dB at 350 W (I wouldn't want to put quite that much power through it) and a single 8.2cm port gives a vmax of 17 m/s.

At a realistic 25W this would give an spl of 108dB which I reckon would be enough for non-drummer situations and with a 250W amp 119dB would be enough for small gigs...

 

So questions:

1 Do those figures seem in the right ballpark?

2 I recall from 'designing' 'hifi' cabs in the late 70s (armed with no more than library books and Radiospares recommended cabinet volume) that it was 'good thing' to make sure all the internal dimensions were different (and ideally not simple multiples of each other) to minimise extra resonances. Does this apply to basscabs in a meaningful way - I note that many combos appear to be almost cubes.

3 what do the jury say about wadding?

 

 

 

[Chienmortbb]

33 minutes ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I'm thinking of building a 4-ohm, 1x12 for dual use - as an extension (actually bypassing the internal 8" speaker) for my little orange Crush 25, but also suitable for use with something like a Trace Elliot Elf..

I'm afraid I like a somewhat bottom heavy sound... might the Beyma 212 be what I want?

I've been pondering a 1x12 build for along time and been playing with Winlsd guided by multiple threads on this forum. I've found this thread particularly useful.

Looking at a 60l cab ( a bit bigger than Phil's design, but bout what I want) tuned to 48hz, I get a max SPL of 120dB at 350 W (I wouldn't want to put quite that much power through it) and a single 8.2cm port gives a vmax of 17 m/s.

At a realistic 25W this would give an spl of 108dB which I reckon would be enough for non-drummer situations and with a 250W amp 119dB would be enough for small gigs...

 

So questions:

1 Do those figures seem in the right ballpark?

2 I recall from 'designing' 'hifi' cabs in the late 70s (armed with no more than library books and Radiospares recommended cabinet volume) that it was 'good thing' to make sure all the internal dimensions were different (and ideally not simple multiples of each other) to minimise extra resonances. Does this apply to basscabs in a meaningful way - I note that many combos appear to be almost cubes.

3 what do the jury say about wadding?

 

 

 

I will let othersmore qualified answer the questions but ina 60l cab thd Beyma  12CVM2  is worth looking at. It’s thermal handling is only a tad lower than the SM212, probably due to having a steel chassis rather than aluminium. However is is.very close in most parameters and like a bigger cabinet than the SM212. It is considerably cheaper though. 

[Balcro]

1 hour ago, Stub Mandrel said:

I'm thinking of building a 4-ohm, 1x12 for dual use - as an extension (actually bypassing the internal 8" speaker) for my little orange Crush 25, but also suitable for use with something like a Trace Elliot Elf..

I'm afraid I like a somewhat bottom heavy sound... might the Beyma 212 be what I want?

I've been pondering a 1x12 build for along time and been playing with Winlsd guided by multiple threads on this forum. I've found this thread particularly useful.

Looking at a 60l cab ( a bit bigger than Phil's design, but bout what I want) tuned to 48hz, I get a max SPL of 120dB at 350 W (I wouldn't want to put quite that much power through it) and a single 8.2cm port gives a vmax of 17 m/s.

At a realistic 25W this would give an spl of 108dB which I reckon would be enough for non-drummer situations and with a 250W amp 119dB would be enough for small gigs...

 

So questions:

1 Do those figures seem in the right ballpark?

2 I recall from 'designing' 'hifi' cabs in the late 70s (armed with no more than library books and Radiospares recommended cabinet volume) that it was 'good thing' to make sure all the internal dimensions were different (and ideally not simple multiples of each other) to minimise extra resonances. Does this apply to basscabs in a meaningful way - I note that many combos appear to be almost cubes.

3 what do the jury say about wadding?

 

I only found out recently that 4 or 5 years ago Beyma announced that the SM series was being morphed / refined / redeveloped into the new WR series, so it might be worthwhile taking a look at those speakers as well. Clearly though, the demand for the SM Series is still good so it looks as if they are still in production.

I looked at a winISD "project" from 12 months ago and found the SM212 (in 60 litres) to have a max SPL at 122dBa, but it wants a much larger port diameter for good breathing. ? Is your vmax to do with port velocity?

I'm with you on Q2. Never have two dimensions the same. I think it prevents or reduces "standing waves" inside the cab.

3. Use some wadding. Trial & error. See stevie's cab project.

PS. BFM's post of 3.11.19  also looks good.    

 

 

Edited March 1, 2020 by Balcro

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

With only 25 watts you should consider not trying to get deep lows. In another thread the 30w Ampeg B15 is mentioned, with respect to how one can drive a goodly sized room with it. The answer is that the speaker is high Q, which results in a strong peak in the 80-120Hz region, at the cost of deep lows. If you doubt that is low enough, listen to any Motown recording from the 60s and 70s. That's what you're hearing.

Quote

what do the jury say about wadding?

The technical term is damping. There's no mystery about it at all, you can model what it does in WinISD and HornResp, and I suspect other programs as well. The parameter you model is Qa, absorption losses. WinISD defaults to a value of 100, which is a bare box. A value of 50 is a with the cabinet lined, 10 is filled, 5 is filled and compressed. The result is seen on the SPL chart, the reason for the result is seen on the impedance chart.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Bill Fitzmaurice

[stevie]

@Lespaul1 Where did you get your LaVoce from? Do they have a UK distributor now?

[Dan Dare]

6 hours ago, Bill Fitzmaurice said:

With only 25 watts you should consider not trying to get deep lows. In another thread the 30w Ampeg B15 is mentioned, with respect to how one can drive a goodly sized room with it. The answer is that the speaker is high Q, which results in a strong peak in the 80-120Hz region, at the cost of deep lows. If you doubt that is low enough, listen to any Motown recording from the 60s and 70s. That's what you're hearing.

Wasn't the bass recorded direct in the Motown studios, Bill? I'm sure Ive read that the Ampeg was only used for in-room monitoring. The reason for the lack of low bass was that it was removed at the mastering stage to prevent the vinyl records of the day causing the stylus to jump because the modulations were too great.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Some was recorded direct, some was recorded through their home built mixing console. Either way there wasn't much there below 70Hz. It wasn't so much because they needed to prevent stylus jump, RIAA equalization took care of that. The main reason was that the primary playback system of the time was car radios, so the sound was mixed to give the best possible result when listened to in a car.

[Dan Dare]

Thanks Bill. Interestingly, low bass is often removed from modern recordings for exactly the same reason - to make it sound right on car systems. We've come a long way...

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I should have been more specific. It was AM radio, with dash board mounted speakers. Gosh awful. Even basic car radios today are far better. I recall an early recording session I did, circa 1970, where the studio monitors were Altec A7s. We listened to the playback and it was quite good. Then the engineer said 'And here's what it's going to sound like in your car', and he switched the playback to a couple of 6x9 inch speakers, with the signal high passed at 100Hz, low passed at 5kHz. It was enough to make one cry.

[Lespaul1]

Hi guys, after spending some time trying the LaVoce I noticed that it produces a lot more percussive noise when I slap  compared to the original ashdown blueline (came with the cab) and the Celestion BL12. 

It is a little bit unpleasant (sounds like when a beginner tries to slap in the wrong spot of the string instead of the last fret of the neck) but not a disaster, as I can adjust the technique or lower the hi-mid and treble on the amp. I'm wondering what could be causing it? 

Looking at the frequency graphs above I don't see too much of a difference in db and hz between the Celestion and the LaVoce, with spikes at similar frequencies and similar db. 

Could it be a different response between Neo and ferrite magnets? Did anyone find differencies between ferrite magnets and, let's say, the Deltalite 2512-II?

When I looked at this project in WinIsd I focused a lot on getting the response on the low end and just look at the graphs for the high freq response, but it all seemed normal. So I'm not really sure if some parameters of frequencies make this speaker not ideal for bass. Any idea?

Edited March 7, 2020 by Lespaul1

[Phil Starr]

On 29/02/2020 at 18:11, Lespaul1 said:

 

Celestion

LaVoce WSN122.50

The main difference is that the LaVoce covers more frequencies, it goes a bit lower and overall feels also brighter, more open and snappier. I think this is mainly due to the neo magnet providing different characteristics to the speakers. the graphs shows a peak around 2k of 6-7db so that plays a big part.

The Celestion sounds just a bit darker and overall feels a little harder to push. Almost like there was a cloth in front of the speaker. It also has a bit of a boom when I play around the 10th fret of the low E, nothing particularly harsh but I can feel it, and the graphs actually shows it.

 

 

On 25/01/2020 at 19:19, Phil Starr said:

 

The other thing to factor in is that the modelling in winisd tells you nothing about the way the midrange is going to sound, it just models the bass response. If you have the frequency response charts we can make an educated guess as to the sound but you won't really know until you try them.

As you observed the frequency responses are very different, that peak with the LaVoce is huge and over a bigger frequency range than the Celestion. It's also centred on 2kHz where you are really going to notice it. The more open and snappier is now your over emphasis of slap sounds. It may be that in fact the extra mids might make this a good speaker for rock where it would really cut through rather than slap where you have just too much of a good thing. Knowing it is there you can always target it with eq of course but this is a really highly coloured speaker, I'd probably quite like that sound but it is coloured. The advantage of self build is that you learn these things but the disadvantage is that you can end up kissing a few frogs before you find your prince. 

 

Actually the response rises from 400hz and that too will affect how you subjectively perceive the tonal balance.