Beginner's Timing Tips

[cytania]

My first post here was when I was having real problems hearing the beat and getting any kind of groove going. Here's some of the things I wish I could send back in time to myself.

1) Listen for the bass kick drum and seek to obliterate it by playing your first root note right on top of it. You can't do this in a wimpy way, attack!

2) If you can still hear the bass kick drum then lean into it or ease off. You should find a pocket of calm like the eye of the storm. Suddenly the snares or hi-hats will ring out and you'll be perfectly positioned within their pattern. In fact when you get this effect it can feel 'wrong' causing you to wobble and lose it. Keep practising ignoring entering the pocket effect and keeping in it for longer and longer.

3) Get a good metronome with good drum sounds not just clicks and claps.

4) Never practise without something behind you be it a drum loop, a CD or a metronome.

5) Never ride the beat like a passenger. This is a surefire way to remain off the one. Create the beat, push forward by adding a controlled bit of extra punch to notes and a dash more grit to the groove.

6) When you think you are getting a song try it with just you and the drums. No backing tracks, no actual CD. Can you create the feel out of mid-air?

7) Look for songs where the bassline and the drums fit together really well. Beware grooves where the drums do a complicated pattern you can't replicate or the bassline is tricky and doing it's own thing.

8) At certain points in some songs the bass does come off the one and plays in unison with the guitars. Saw Thin Lizzy do this a few times on 'Live & Dangerous', usually as a way of ending. Assign this to the 'advanced stuff to do later' bin along with slapping and popping. Work on imprinting the one as a deep down habit.

[endorka]

[quote name='cytania' post='366615' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:04 PM']5) Never ride the beat like a passenger. This is a surefire way to remain off the one. Create the beat, push forward by adding a controlled bit of extra punch to notes and a dash more grit to the groove.[/quote]

Absolutely spot on. Many musicians, including bass players, do exactly this. The effect is that they are merely "playing along", rather than contributing something to the music; this can lead to the music being boring. It is imperative that energy of some kind is imparted. The pot must be constantly stirred!

Jennifer

[cytania]

Thanks Jennifer, nice to know it's not just me seeing this/having trouble with this. I find 'easing off' is a constant pitfall waiting for me if I drift into the passenger mindset.

This is equite different from playing softly, in fact in the last few weeks since I got the Roland metronome thingie I've found once I get right on the beat I can then play softer but still in time and it's really cool.

Nice website by the way your comments on flatwounds are encouraging me to see what my Ibanez sounds like with them and break from my 'I'm just playing not recording so it's roundwounds'.

[solo4652]

Some really useful advice here.

I'm pretty much a beginner, and I'm struggling with my timing. Playing along to Youtube videos at home, I'm not too bad. However, when I play with a drummer and guitarist, it often falls apart. This mainly because I'm concentrating on keeping the beat, but then find it really hard to count the bars to start, stop, just play roots, play the bridge, etc at the right points. We don't have a singer yet, and I'm hoping that this will be the missing link. That said, I'm fully aware that it's me and the drummmer who should be the core of the song.

Any advice to stop my irritation growing, please?

Steve

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='cytania' post='366615' date='Dec 30 2008, 09:04 PM']4) Never practise without something behind you be it a drum loop, a CD or a metronome.[/quote]

For the most part really good notes in your post.
Although I totally disagree with no 4 above.
You should in my view be able to create a really solid feel and play free of any device or other player consistently and in time. If you never learn the sensation of doing that all by yourself you might always be the 'passenger' you are rightly fearful of being.

A strong sense of beat, time whatever you want to call it should emanate from your playing at all times (obviously I would except freer and more fluid passages, but thats advanced anyway)

[cytania]

Hi Steve, first thing I'd look for if I were you is some kind of drum machine/metronome. Make sure it has decent drum sounds and can give you a 4:4 kick/snare beat without too much hassle. This will give you something to work with outside of rehearsals. The real test of playing along is to slow down the beat, this is actually harder than song speed as the groove gaps open up encouraging you to slip.

In rehearsals see if your drummer is open to turning up early and working through without guitar. Try to do extended workouts on the main song parts rather than wallop through the song structure. If your drummer does all the fills see if he can't drop them and play it straight. Drummers like to do fills because just like a variation in a repetitive bass line it gives them a break, but at this stage you want to be practicing together till the groove gets deeply ingrained.

When you do get the guitarist in invite them let you play through a whole verse before they come in. Maybe arrange a signal for them to take a bridge or break. That should get them listening for cues in your playing rather than working from 'how the song goes'. Think of it as the extended mix.

Oh, and are you moving the bass head where the drummer can see it? Drummers have timing issues too and if you keep a visual reinforcement going they play better. My first drummer (who may I may play again with next year, if the stars line up right) was always losing sticks, but if I kept hitting the one she'd come straight back in on beat like a trooper. Much harder if you are rigidly standing still like Killer Kane from the New York Dolls.


Jake - sort of know what you mean. I suspect that kind of confidence will come as the steps I outlined take hold at a deep muscle-memory level but for now I'm keeping my crutches close by ;-)

Happy New Year to all of you, keep on the one throughout 2009!

[YouMa]

Just not thinking about it to much seems to work for me.

[endorka]

[quote name='solo4652' post='366908' date='Dec 31 2008, 10:38 AM']I'm pretty much a beginner, and I'm struggling with my timing. Playing along to Youtube videos at home, I'm not too bad. However, when I play with a drummer and guitarist, it often falls apart. This mainly because I'm concentrating on keeping the beat, but then find it really hard to count the bars to start, stop, just play roots, play the bridge, etc at the right points. We don't have a singer yet, and I'm hoping that this will be the missing link. That said, I'm fully aware that it's me and the drummmer who should be the core of the song.[/quote]

A singer will help greatly with this, as it will free you from the counting of bars, as you say, at least for the most part. However, it is best if you know the material sufficiently well that you are not dependent on literally counting bars to determine your place in the tune. Most songs "breathe" in a certain way, with fairly simple patterns of multiple bars, e.g. 12 bar blues, many jazz tunes in 32 bar AABA form. If you can feel bars in multiples of two, then four, then eight, it becomes a lot easier. I say "feel" rather than count because that is what familiarity gives you - you know intuitively when e.g the end of an 8 bar phrase is coming along, rather than having to explicitly count this. Kindof like walking, you usually know roughly how far you've walked without actually counting steps.

A great way to learn this is to sing along with the tune yourself, either literally or in your head. If you do this often enough you'll find out that even singers sometimes get the form of a tune wrong. Your familiarity with the material will be an effective way to prevent train wrecks in this scenario :-)

Jennifer

[Bay Splayer]

too much to think about there

tapping my feet works fine for me

[cytania]

The trouble with not thinking about it is you could be playing way off the beat and nobody will tell you. Guitarist don't hear it. I was lucky in my last band that a seasoned bassist put over to me how off-kilter I was. It doesn't sound gig-killingly awful, just not upliftingly great. Being off beat is the reason why perfectly decent playing can drag.

When I start practicing I try to nail the beat from the word go but I rarely get it straight off. It's only after I've leaned in and then eased off that I feel the groove happening right. My main hope is that practice will give me time chops.

Personally I'd rather play a simple line with no timing faults than a flashy run that wavers.

[BassBunny]

[quote name='solo4652' post='366908' date='Dec 31 2008, 10:38 AM']Some really useful advice here.

I'm pretty much a beginner, and I'm struggling with my timing. Playing along to Youtube videos at home, I'm not too bad. However, when I play with a drummer and guitarist, it often falls apart. This mainly because I'm concentrating on keeping the beat, but then find it really hard to count the bars to start, stop, just play roots, play the bridge, etc at the right points. We don't have a singer yet, and I'm hoping that this will be the missing link. That said, I'm fully aware that it's me and the drummmer who should be the core of the song.

Any advice to stop my irritation growing, please?

Steve[/quote]
Steve, The CD I sent you has both a Metronome and Drum Machine in the software package.
Get it loaded on your lap-top and off you go.

[solo4652]

[quote name='BassBunny' post='368911' date='Jan 2 2009, 10:17 PM']Steve, The CD I sent you has both a Metronome and Drum Machine in the software package.
Get it loaded on your lap-top and off you go.[/quote]


Yes - thank you. I'm not too bad at staying with the beat once I've got going. The problem is counting bars to ensure I'm starting and stopping at the right points, and then losing concentration on the bass-playing techniques as a direct result. Alternatively, I concentrate on my playing and then lose track of where I amm in the song!

Jennifer's tips above are useful. Quite simply, the more I practise and the more familiar I become with the songs, then the easier it gets. For people who aren't naturally musical (like me), it probably comes down to hours of practice, time and effort. Dammit.

Steve

[The Funk]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='366951' date='Dec 31 2008, 11:27 AM']You should in my view be able to create a really solid feel and play free of any device or other player consistently and in time. If you never learn the sensation of doing that all by yourself you might always be the 'passenger' you are rightly fearful of being.[/quote]

Agree 100% with Jake on this.

[quote name='YouMa' post='367383' date='Dec 31 2008, 07:33 PM']Just not thinking about it to much seems to work for me.[/quote]

That's what works best for me on stage. I like to work on my time a bit at home though.

[quote name='endorka' post='367547' date='Jan 1 2009, 07:41 AM']A singer will help greatly with this, as it will free you from the counting of bars, as you say, at least for the most part. However, it is best if you know the material sufficiently well that you are not dependent on literally counting bars to determine your place in the tune.[/quote]

Yeah, I think it's best just to learn the tune and then be able to adapt when the singer misses their cues!

[quote name='cytania' post='368682' date='Jan 2 2009, 06:23 PM']The trouble with not thinking about it is you could be playing way off the beat and nobody will tell you.[...] Being off beat is the reason why perfectly decent playing can drag.[/quote]

It's good to think about time at home when you're practising or in the rehearsal room as a band but you shouldn't be thinking about it at all on stage. It should take care of itself. (I make sure I can hear the snare or hi-hats and that's enough for me).

I don't like your use of the term "off beat" though. To me "off beat" means the 1/8th note "ands" in a 4/4 bar, ie. | 1 - AND - 2 - AND - 3 - AND - 4 - AND |. I prefer to say "behind the beat", "ahead of the beat" or "on the beat" when talking about everything else.

I tend to play ahead of the beat so that the main 'bwawh' of a bass note rings dead on the beat and to give everything a sense of urgency. My keyboard player tends to play behind the beat so that the whole things has a laid-back, unhurried vibe. The two can fit together with the drummer and guitarist playing dead on. So long as noone gets confused by the playing ahead or behind, then the band won't lose its place and speed up or slow down.

I also don't think playing can be perfectly decent if someone has bad time. If they have bad time, their playing can only be lousy.

Edited January 5, 2009 by The Funk