Which Bass for a more vintage sound...

[Mickyk]

I find myself playing or trying to play a more vintage type of sound.I watched a video earlier of someone playing the bassline for Street Life by the Crusaders ,which i happen to like a lot.

I currently have 3 Bass Guitars in my Arsenal which are,1/ Ibanez SR 500,my favourite one right now, 2/ Sire Version 2 Marcus Miller V7 Vintage Alder 4 String Black, 3/ Yamaha BB 424x.

It seems that none of them can replicate the sound i'm after,unless that is down to me anyway,I play through an Ashdown Vintage 12 at home only as i'm not in any kind of band or anything as yet.

So i have a question.

?If you were to recommend a certain Bass or even An Amp which would get me on my way ,What would it be.

Ps I  have short ish  Fingers so a neck like a pick axe is not going to help.

 

[itu]

You need darker sound, so change strings even down to flats, play closer to neck and turn your tone down. That's it. You do not need a new - or another old - bass.

[ahpook]

12 minutes ago, itu said:

You need darker sound, so change strings even down to flats, play closer to neck and turn your tone down. That's it. You do not need a new - or another old - bass.

...also you could add a mute (even a sock stuffed under strings at the bridge).

Edited September 29, 2019 by ahpook

[OliverBlackman]

The Sire will easily do it. Practice practice practice!

[therealting]

You have a J-style bass and a P (well, PJ) style bass, so you’re good to go gearwise. As others have said, choose the neck pickup, roll down the tone knob and enjoy. 

[Burns-bass]

1 hour ago, itu said:

You need darker sound, so change strings even down to flats, play closer to neck and turn your tone down. That's it. You do not need a new - or another old - bass.

Agreed this. Don’t use a sock to mute the bridge but a bit of old foam. It’s what the pros do!

[bubinga5]

Put Flat wounds on the Sire. That bass will do anything you want it to do.  Its a jazz with a very powerful comprehensive pre, super versatile. Ive had 3 and you can get a really old school tone out of it. Marcus Miller knew this when he had input in designing it.

Edited September 29, 2019 by bubinga5

[CameronJ]

You’re unlikely to get vintage tones from your Ibanez SR, but between a Sire and a Yamaha BB you’ve got most of the classic tones covered. Spend a few quid on strings and you’ll be golden. My personal opinion is put flats on the Yamaha and keep rounds on the Sire. Enjoy!

Edited September 29, 2019 by CameronJ

[Mickyk]

So these  Flatounds you all speak of,?any particular make or model,?or are they all much of a muchness.

[jrixn1]

3 minutes ago, Mickyk said:

So these  Flatounds you all speak of,?any particular make or model,?or are they all much of a muchness.

I would say the classic vintage flats are La Bella Deep Talkin' Bass.

[machinehead]

27 minutes ago, Mickyk said:

So these  Flatounds you all speak of,?any particular make or model,?or are they all much of a muchness.

Have a read here:

https://www.bassplayer.com/gear/flat-world-a-roundup-of-flatwound-strings

Frank.

[gjones]

43 minutes ago, Mickyk said:

So these  Flatounds you all speak of,?any particular make or model,?or are they all much of a muchness.

For someone who is starting out, flatwounds may be a good idea because they'll get rid of the clank (which you don't want for the crusaders type of sound). But they are expensive and are not really necessary. All you need to do is turn the treble down/tone down and the mid up a bit on your bass.

Edited September 29, 2019 by gjones

[Mickyk]

18 minutes ago, machinehead said:

Have a read here:

https://www.bassplayer.com/gear/flat-world-a-roundup-of-flatwound-strings

Frank.

Some good info here,Thanks Frank.

[Mickyk]

5 minutes ago, gjones said:

For someone who is starting out, flatwounds may be a good idea because they'll get rid of the clank (which you don't want for the crusaders type of sound). But they are expensive and are not really necessary. All you need to do is turn the treble down/tone down and the mid up a bit on your bass.

I'll have a play around a bit tomorrow night with the knobs and see what it sounds like with all three.The current strings i have on all three of my Axes are Elixer Nanoweb Rounds.

[drTStingray]

12 hours ago, gjones said:

For someone who is starting out, flatwounds may be a good idea because they'll get rid of the clank (which you don't want for the crusaders type of sound). But they are expensive and are not really necessary. All you need to do is turn the treble down/tone down and the mid up a bit on your bass.

I'm a bit surprised to hear people talking about the bass sound with the Crusaders as being vintage, with flatwounds, particularly as late as 1979. I saw them several times and the bass sound was anything but this. The player they had with them on tour in the late 70s was Robert 'Pops' Popwell whose sound (on a Fender Jazz) was anything but 60s flatwound vintage. He was also a stunning slap player (and played it a lot with the Crusaders). 

So I would say this sound is Fender Jazz with roundwounds with the bridge pick up favoured (but not soloed), or also a 2 band Stingray with either flats (treble up) or rounds (treble not full). The line should be played with sufficient muting to control but not completely eliminate clank. 

Sorry but I think you're going down the wrong route if you're thinking flat wound, vintage thud. Favour the bridge pick up on your Sire or other basses (mixing in a bit of neck) and strike the strings with authority - round wounds are fine - I would suggest you'll need some left hand muting also. It should sound fine, especially in the mix. 

Edited September 30, 2019 by drTStingray

[dannybuoy]

2 hours ago, gjones said:

For someone who is starting out, flatwounds may be a good idea because they'll get rid of the clank (which you don't want for the crusaders type of sound). But they are expensive and are not really necessary. All you need to do is turn the treble down/tone down and the mid up a bit on your bass.

My TI flats have been on my P for 10 years now, so they've worked out pretty cost effective! 

[chris_b]

I believe Wilton Felder played a Fender Precision with flats on Street Life. I get a great vintage sound with my Aguilar TH500. Flatwound strings are a must. I use TI's but LaBella's  would also sound pretty good. For a fuller sound, play with your thumb on the neck pickup for maximum vintage thump without too much woolliness.

I'd start by putting flats on your Sire. Make one change at a time and see what occurs. 

[chris_b]

3 hours ago, gjones said:

For someone who is starting out, flatwounds may be a good idea because they'll get rid of the clank (which you don't want for the crusaders type of sound). But they are expensive and are not really necessary. All you need to do is turn the treble down/tone down and the mid up a bit on your bass.

I'd agree that a good set of flats are expensive to buy, but as already pointed out they can sound great for decades. So they are very cheap in the long run.

I'd disagree that using full bass and no treble would make your bass sound like it has flatwound strings on. Flats do not just sound bassy, they have a greater frequency range than that. They have a life of their own and an authority in their sound that EQ on its own couldn't emulate.

[drTStingray]

Interestingly, both Alphonso Johnson and James Jamerson also play on that album.

I would not worry too much about what bass and strings are used in the original - we will never know what studio interfaces were used or overall enhancers in the production, all of which would move the bass sound away from a 60s type of thing - and it's certainly a far more 'hi fi' sounding production than that.

I have used roundwounds since about 1979 and would describe my ideal sound as this era of funk and jazz rock. In fact I've only put flatwounds on a couple of basses ever, one to see what the fuss was about, and one because it's Fretless and I didn't want to wreck the fretboard. 

Like chris_b, I use a modern class D set up (MarkBass LM3), and can get a decent sound for that era with it, and a Stingray bass in combination with playing technique. I used to use an Ashdown ABM which was also fine for this (there is a thread currently running on Ashdown in General Discussion). The key, in my opinion for playing in a band with this type of thing is a clean bass sound at the required volume. I would say a key to playing the Street Life bass part is the groove and the note lengths - some are staccato, some not.

Getting the overall feel and note lengths and intensity right, using the basses you already have, will go far further to achieving the right 'sound'. 

By the way I also have short fingers - you can learn to get around disadvantages of this, such as stretching across notes, by left hand placement on back of the neck - the other disadvantage I've found is fretting hand slapping in 80s onwards style pop and slap - long fingers give you more leverage and a stronger slap - however you can even get around that! 

Looking at equipment again, it's interesting that for Level 42s first single, Love Meeting Love, Mark King said he borrowed a bass, a Gibson EB2 IIRC. It sounds like a standard generic bass sound. The point of mentioning this being that you don't need necessarily to be using the same equipment as used in a studio to achieve the sound - there are so many other variables in studio recordings.  

Going back to my original comments, The Crusaders used a more modern type of bass sound live - whilst the sound on Street Life would be like the recording other songs would have slap etc. All played on a Jazz. I saw them three times in the late 70s, live , using two different bass players and they were like this on all three occasions. 

 

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by drTStingray

[Mickyk]

For me this guy has it nailed ,and this sound is what i'm after.

 

[Lozz196]

Nice sound but I’d bet isolated it’s a lot less bassy and a lot more middy than it sounds in that mix.

[dannybuoy]

You could get close with either of those basses on the neck pickup, flatwounds, and a warm preamp/overdrive.

Although a Fender P wouldn't hurt!

Edited September 30, 2019 by dannybuoy

[drTStingray]

That's a nice cover. 

I'd love to know where you guys think you could either buy a bass with flatwound strings as new, or flatwound bass strings in shops in the late 70s. Certainly in the UK they'd been out of fashion since the 60s and people would generally not be seen dead with them......

Thats not to say some people didn't insist on using them - it's well documented that the likes of Jamerson, who refused to change to a more lively bass sound, lost work as a result. 

[LukeFRC]

5 hours ago, Mickyk said:

For me this guy has it nailed ,and this sound is what i'm after.

 

To my ears, the tone to me sounds a lot like a fair bit of good technique and lots of practice 

 

For that sound I bet that player could get there on your Yamaha with the tone half way down. For something more like the record (I just looked it up on youtube to listen) @drTStingray's advice would probably get you there.

My guess, and this is a guess is that if you cannot get somewhere near that tone with your Yamaha bass and strings... then make sure the action isn't too low, turn the amp gain up and practice playing with a wee bit softer touch to see if that gets you there...
 

[Dood]

I've played a PRS SE Kestrel this week. The latest versions are brilliant. Vintage jazz bass tone all the way and ... so well balanced.  NO neck dive at all.