Which Bass for a more vintage sound...

[chris_b]

5 hours ago, drTStingray said:

I'd love to know where you guys think you could either buy a bass with flatwound strings as new, or flatwound bass strings in shops in the late 70s. Certainly in the UK they'd been out of fashion since the 60s and people would generally not be seen dead with them......

Thats not to say some people didn't insist on using them - it's well documented that the likes of Jamerson, who refused to change to a more lively bass sound, lost work as a result. 

There may be others but I would bet that Labella flatwounds have been continuously available since the 50's. Many/most of the studio players used flats from the 50's right through to today. Flats created the sound of choice for many producers during that time. The world of bands probably did ignore flats for many years.

Jamerson only started to lose work after he moved to LA. The LA sound wasn't the Detroit sound and he couldn't adapt. When you've been the highest paid studio bass player for over a decade that's probably understandable. His problems were less about the strings and more about his ego and his inability to change into something LA wanted and he didn't. Even in LA at that time, most studio players had Pre CBS P basses with flats but they were flexible enough to bring a selection of basses that has strings which could be tuned.

[chris_b]

On 29/09/2019 at 17:24, Mickyk said:

I find myself playing or trying to play a more vintage type of sound.I watched a video earlier of someone playing the bassline for Street Life by the Crusaders ,which i happen to like a lot.

When the Crusaders went on tour they used various bass players, most of whom didn't use P basses. I saw one guy using a Fender Jazz and I'm sure there were others. So the record is there as a reference, but you don't need to follow too slavishly. It is just as valid for you to have your personal take on a bass sound.

 

PS Just remembered it was Robert Popwell playing the Jazz. The Crusaders Street Life video has a guy playing a Stingray. So different players and different basses. Looks like they didn't have any "rules" about which instruments should be used on stage.

The original studio track:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iVR7WLsvAg

The video track:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRBYsINSUZ0

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by chris_b

[songofthewind]

Wilton Felder, the Crusaders’ sax player, played bass on some of their records.

I think I recall seeing footage of him playing a Precision.

[drTStingray]

Pops Popwell played on several Crusaders albums up to Steet Life, on which Wilton Felder, James Jamerson and Alphonso Johnson played. Max Bennett played on Scratch. 

Im not sure whether La Bella flatwounds were available in the UK but in the late 70s/early 80s that was not the sound to have. It was all roundwounds and a bright bass sound. 

[leroybasslines]

Listening to Street Life now, and it's definitely a Fender Precision - the P 'woody' sound is pretty upfront - and I'm guessing flats.

I'd like to echo those on this thread that have emphasised practising and technique over the equipment though. A Precision-style bass with flats will have a sound, but so much of the sound on that record is to down to how Wilton Felder plays. To me, it sounds like he's playing quite hard, digging in to get the sound of the strings on the fretboard with big attack. However, he uses his left hand really well to mute strings, let them ring and vary note length. For me though, the biggest thing is his natural sense of timing, how he plays with the drum pattern. He's really listening to the hi-hat and locking in with the pushes as well as the more usual kick-drum/bass combo. Sometimes he's playing quite ahead of the beat too, especially in the solo sections which gives the whole thing a light, uplifiting feel with a lot of forward momentum.

I'd also agree that this tone is more of a disco, late 70s funk vibe; when most people talk about a vintage tone they're talking about Motown, James Jamerson, Bob Babbitt etc which is quite a different vibe. Again though, it's down to their playing technique and approach more than anything: they're pretty much all playing Fender Precisions with flats but it all sounds different because of HOW more than WHAT they're playing. Hell, Steve Harris plays a Fender P strung with flats but I think we could all agree that he sounds a bit different to Felder and Jamerson.

I've tried and failed to find video clips of Wilton Felder playing bass (he's usually on sax live) but I'd recommend just listening to as much of his playing as you can if it's his sound that you like. I Want You Back is the obvious next step in the Felder canon. Try and work out what he's doing and the choices he's making and just try stuff playing along until you sound similar, but make sure your really listening. Gear is great and helpful, but you'll be amazed what you can do with what you've got just by thinking about your hands and being a super-critical listener. And don't forget how much of your sound comes from your left hand!

I'm rambling now, sorry. Good luck!

[yorks5stringer]

As an aside I saw the Crusaders back in the 70's at Newcastle City Hall with the full line up including Larry Carlton on Guitar and Pops on Bass. Can't remember if Randy Crawford was singing however. One of my top 10 gigs attended....

 

Re the flatwounds in the 70's debate, I got a Gibson EB2 in 1975 strung with flatwounds, however there is every chance they may have been on it since 1962 when it was built!

Edited October 1, 2019 by yorks5stringer

[chris_b]

2 hours ago, songofthewind said:

Wilton Felder, the Crusaders’ sax player, played bass on some of their records.

I think I recall seeing footage of him playing a Precision.

He played bass on most of their records and AFAIK none of their live shows. He was a frontman playing sax on the gigs.

Felder was a first call studio bass player in LA and his Precision would have been his starting point in the studio, as it was for every other bass player.

[drTStingray]

The Crusaders/Jazz Crusaders released albums from the beginning of the 60s, and released around 15 in that decade - Wilton Felder is thought to have started playing bass guitar at the end of the 60s, and was a studio player (notably Motown in LA) during the 70s. 

However his main role in the Crusaders was tenor sax/frontman  and was an awesome player. 

I have to eat humble pie on one thing though, Pops Popwell played a Precision (also with Olivia Newton-John).

Note also that Felder used Aria basses. 

[Marc S]

@Mickyk I used to have an Ibanez SR500. Cracking bass, especially for the sort of money you can pick them up for second-hand
As others have said, it's not so easy to get a good vintage sound from this bass. I joined a couple of bands where I needed a more vintage sound,
and that Ibanez just didn't give me what I needed, so I know where you're coming from.

My next step was to get myself a Jazz (Fender Roadworn, as it happens) and that immediately gave me more of the vintage sound I was after at that time.
Even though I also play upright, I wasn't a fan of flatwounds on a bass guitar - I just found that whatever type I tried, they were just too high tension for my liking....
So it took quite a bit of experimentation. I've now settled on Thomastik Infeldt Jazz Flats, as they're low tension. So low in fact, they took a bit of getting used to,
and I still don't like them on my fretless. On that, I tried a few brands, and finally settled on Adagio flats. They're not as high tension as some I've tried, but a tad more than the Thomastiks.

Thomastik Infelds aren't cheap btw - so finding the "right" strings for you can be an expensive experiment.
The Adagio's were about £12 on eBay, and I'd recommend at least giving them a shot, as they're relatively inexpensive.

You should be able to get a decent vintage tone from one of your other basses. I've heard great reports about Sires - so I think I'd try flats before buying any new basses.
Good luck with your search, and thanks for sharing that video of "Streetlife" - I think I hadn't listened to it so carefully before - it's a cracking song and great bass line

[Skybone]

Maybe a set of vintage flavoured P/J pickups in the Yamaha would be an option?

IIRC, the Yamaha's pickups have Ceramic magnets, which tend to sound a bit "colder" than pickups with Alnico magnets.

You could spend a fair bit on some hand-wound pickups, or a more reasonable amount for the "known" manufacturer's (Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, Fender, etc.). Depends on how much you're willing to spend I suppose.

Still cheaper than buying a new bass.

Keep the old pickups, and swap them back in if you ever decide to sell, then sell the pickups separately.

[Reggaebass]

29 minutes ago, Marc S said:

The Adagio's were about £12 on eBay, and I'd recommend at least giving them a shot, as they're relatively inexpensive.

I’ve had a set of these on one of my jazzes for over 3 years and they’ve really worn in nice, they have a nice deep warm sound which is perfect for me, obviously the tone will differ from bass to bass but @Mickyk I agree with Marc s , at £10 - £12 they would certainly be worth a go to maybe get you a step closer to the sound you’re looking for 🙂

[Mickyk]

On 01/10/2019 at 16:49, Skybone said:

Maybe a set of vintage flavoured P/J pickups in the Yamaha would be an option?

IIRC, the Yamaha's pickups have Ceramic magnets, which tend to sound a bit "colder" than pickups with Alnico magnets.

You could spend a fair bit on some hand-wound pickups, or a more reasonable amount for the "known" manufacturer's (Seymour Duncan, DiMarzio, Fender, etc.). Depends on how much you're willing to spend I suppose.

Still cheaper than buying a new bass.

Keep the old pickups, and swap them back in if you ever decide to sell, then sell the pickups separately.

?Do you have a link for the pick up replacements you mention,i didn't know that the original pups for the Yamaha BB424 could be  acquired thanks for that,and thanks everyone who has took the time and trouble to reply,there's some really good advice here.And i have tak4en on board what has been said.I absolutely love the Bass sound on that Crusaders record and it brings back some warm memories for me from that era as i was 19 at the time good good days.

Astonishingly enough for me it seems that the SR500 with its Bartolini mk1s with some foam under the strings at the bridge is a great improvement over and above the other two doing the same thing.I  have now been practising the line for some two weeks and i am slowly getting there .I might at some point post up a Video of me hopefully having cracked the thing.Once again thanks everyone thats posted.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Mickyk

[Woodinblack]

51 minutes ago, Mickyk said:

Astonishingly enough for me it seems that the SR500 with its Bartolini mk1s with some foam under the strings at the bridge is a great improvement over and above the other two doing the same thing

Doesn't astonish me, if I wanted a more vintage sound I would use my SR1000 (or maybe the 5005). Good enough to Carol Kaye and she seems to get  a fairly vintage sound!

 

[donkelley]

just throwing in 2 cents - vintage?  flats on a precision or jazz bass.  or if you're into the monkees sound (I actually really am, the session producer/bassist who played on most of their tracks was a fantastic musician, not to put down peter, mike and mickey  (yes mickey, a solid rhythm guitarist, not drummer at first)- all of whom were very good guitarists and, towards the end, peter became a really really really good bassist)... a hollow body gretsch bass, also with flats.  

Edited October 17, 2019 by donkelley

[bassmayhem]

I am a fan(!) of fan fretted instruments, and found the perfect passive allround bass earlier this year: a Payson Supercharger bass with Nordstrand BigRig and NP5 pickups. Everything from modern to really old school in one instrument.