DoubleOhStephan Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 2 hours ago, Dan Dare said: Exactly. He is attempting to charge people who know little good money for his hack work. Why should we not call him out? A lot of beginners are members on here and if we can prevent any of them from being conned by this man and his ilk, I say that's a good thing. I don't care whether he has mental health issues or not. That's no excuse for ripping people off. Call him out all you like, that doesn't change the fact that 1. It's impossible to confirm if all his customers are informed beginners and 2. (which is the only statement of fact which I've made) he has 100% positive feedback from 164 customers in the past 12 months. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleOhStephan Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 2 hours ago, lemmywinks said: What is your reply? People should exercise caution when buying from ebay. And, just like every single thread that I've seen from beginners asking for advice, try before you buy and if possible, take an experienced bassist with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleOhStephan Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 2 hours ago, PaulWarning said: As others have said the people who are likely to buy his guitars are beginners and haven't a clue about buying an instrument and very unlikely to be on this forum, his excellent feedback would be enough for most, trouble is, by the time people have realised they've bought a pig in a poke (if they ever do) the positive feedback has already been left. Theres no evidence for that, it's simply supposition. 2 hours ago, PaulWarning said: So while slagging him off on here may be entertaining for some it's highly unlikely to achieve anything Indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 4 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said: Theres no evidence for that, it's simply supposition. indeed, just my opinion, I just think it's highly unlikely that anybody who has any experience of guitars would be taken in by his conversions and waffle, but like you say, just supposition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprocketflup Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 5 hours ago, DoubleOhStephan said: Great thing about ebay is every customer gets to give an honest report on the item they've bought and it's there for everyone to see. Probably worth having a look at his, as all of his customers seem happy 🤷🏻♂️ Indeed. And sadly the bad thing about Ebay is sellers can 'fine tune' the feedback that gets left, thus. Couple years ago I spent a tennerish plus postage on a clothing bag/suit protector type thing off Ebay, was from a seller with large product turnover. The product was advertised with all the usual guff we've all come to know and love "Hi quality....super tough....etc etc " It tore as I tried to take it out its plastic bag packaging. A bit miffed, I left them negative feedback and set about trying to find a decent product (Which I haven't to this very day, I don't think they exist) Day or so later I received an email telling me that if I retracted that feedback, they'd refund me in full. Now, how many people would go for that sort of deal? A very large percentage Id wager. I didn't as it goes, coz I was so p*ssed off and I'm generally a very stubborn bugger. I left my feedback there. But I never got a refund. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 24 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said: People should exercise caution when buying from ebay. And, just like every single thread that I've seen from beginners asking for advice, try before you buy and if possible, take an experienced bassist with you. That doesn't answer the question really, we aren't talking about general eBay precautions. We're talking about a specific listing which shows some extremely poor workmanship which someone who trusts you is asking for advice on, that's why it's a good way to determine what you actually think about his selling practices rather than what you think you should be thinking. If someone showed you a link to that slapdash Grabber clone/Legacy cut and shut thing would you say "yeah sure, that looks a good bet for just shy of £250 delivered" or would you say "how long a barge pole do you have"? It's actually a really easy question to answer, I would give it the thumbs down just from looking at the first few pictures. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bass-guitar-with-EB3-single-and-Musicman-twin-coil-pickups/193044925422?hash=item2cf25fcbee:g:93wAAOSwMHpdUWhO 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NancyJohnson Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Just concerning his feedback, as eBay buyers are now anonymous, what's to say the guy isn't getting his missus to buy his stuff and put positive feedback up? Also I'm uncertain whether there's any speedy way to ascertain whether he's relisted previously sold stuff, if at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleOhStephan Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 26 minutes ago, lemmywinks said: "how long a barge pole do you have"? Which is exactly what I would say. But that's not the point I was making. I've simply said, he has 100% positive feedback from people who have actually bought what he's selling. Their opinion has to count for something within this debate. However, even that's being dismissed as being left before the product been received, or if it has been received its from someone who doesn't know any better, because it's contrary to the case being made against him. That just strikes me as dishonest and there's no need for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleOhStephan Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 40 minutes ago, NancyJohnson said: Just concerning his feedback, as eBay buyers are now anonymous, what's to say the guy isn't getting his missus to buy his stuff and put positive feedback up? Also I'm uncertain whether there's any speedy way to ascertain whether he's relisted previously sold stuff, if at all. 10 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said: However, even that's being dismissed as being left before the product been received, or if it has been received its from someone who doesn't know any better, because it's contrary to the case being made against him. 🤷🏻♂️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) Do you not think his listings will automatically filter out anybody who knows about how guitars should be constructed or even those with basic woodworking knowledge? Surely you don't think anybody other than a total novice would browse what he has for sale and do anything other than laugh their b0ll0cks off? We have a guy in my local neighbourhood who sells old laptops at carboot sales, I see him every time I have a stroll around so he's probably there every week. Big table full of old consumer grade Pentium M and Core 2 Duos from XP to Vista eras, nothing you'd pay more than £35 for if you needed a basic laptop and you were skint. His strategy is remarkably similar to MDP's - massively inflated price tag (£140 for an old HP Core 2 Duo and £69 for a Celeron M Compaq last time I looked) and a label attached with sales guff proclaiming the programs he's installed and the effort put into setting it up. His customers seem to be mainly older folk who have no issue paying well over the odds as they trust the local computer expert and his sales patter over a faceless online store front. Literally nobody who knows what they are looking at would even consider buying one and would instantly recognise it as someone trying to gouge money by misrepresenting a product, thus any knowledgeable buyers are instantly filtered out. MDP's listings have the same effect IMO, nobody who has been playing in any sort of semi-serious capacity and has gained even the tiniest bit of knowledge would think those instruments were worth more than 20% of the asking price. The only people clicking BIN are novices. Edited October 31, 2019 by lemmywinks 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleOhStephan Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 13 minutes ago, Meddle said: Alright then Richard Dawkins, I don't give a shiny sh1te about his EBay feedback. Better? Well, that depends doesn't it. If you don't want to see different perspectives in a debate so that your views don't risk being changed, then it's absolutely fine. Doesn't change the facts though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleOhStephan Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 26 minutes ago, lemmywinks said: Do you not think his listings will automatically filter out anybody who knows about how guitars should be constructed or even those with basic woodworking knowledge? Surely you don't think anybody other than a total novice would browse what he has for sale and do anything other than laugh their b0ll0cks off? I really don't know and neither does anyone else. It's probable, but unproven so therefore can't just be dismissed. 30 minutes ago, lemmywinks said: MDP's listings have the same effect IMO, nobody who has been playing in any sort of semi-serious capacity and has gained even the tiniest bit of knowledge would think those instruments were worth more than 20% of the asking price. The only people clicking BIN are novices. Maybe. But again, that's just supposition. You don't know who the buyers are, the only fact here is, in the last 12 months, no one has left negative feedback. To suggest they're all novices (or any other dismissive description) is just an opinion to support your view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jus Lukin Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 There is something incongruous about the feeback. Perhaps there is some magic going on which we're all missing until we've experienced it for ourselves, but given the shocking visual state of the work, I'm inclinded not to consider it entirely trustworthy. I do wonder how he'd fare against the trade descriptions act, actually. Perhaps it falls in to 'Red Bull gives you wiiings' territory. It's so patently untrue it is clearly humourous hyperbole- no-one would believe that the drink will cause them to sprout fully functioning wings, even though the advert directly states as such. However, I think the fact that he skirts the line of truth and outright lies so closely is also cause to be suspicious. Maybe we should all purchase something from him, and learn just how wrong everything we know has been all this time? 1 hour ago, DoubleOhStephan said: Which is exactly what I would say. Something a little incongrous here, too. You are absolutely correct that all accusations and arguments need to be made from a point of pragmatism and rooted in factual assertions, any assumption or ad hominen attacks aren't really valid here. I appreciate that you are trying to make sure that this thread doesn't descend into a witch hunt or plain old bullying- that's a good thing. That said, you can see as well as anyone that these items are hack-jobs being sold as something they are not, and would advise a friend to steer well clear of being ripped off by him. His transparency as a charlatan and spin doctor make any defense of him and his 'facts' look shaky. Hundreds of satisfied customers of instruments looking objectively worse than a standard budget factory instrument, and costing multiple times more just doesn't add up. Has a whiff of fish and rodents to me. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 5 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said: .....is just an opinion to support your view. There's been a lot of that in this thread, or put another way, folks starting to clutch at straws as they realise that yes, to all intents and despite their sense of injustice, this is just another example of internet bullying, albeit by a bunch of middle-aged blokes with not much else to do apparently (I'm assuming they're all middle-aged with nothing else to do using the same logic by which they assumed age and inexperience of the buyers). If they are that angry with this guy, why don't they they contact eBay, or trading standards, or the guy himself. Given they're all so knowledgable, they could perhaps offer him some friendly advice? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulWarning Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 1 minute ago, Jus Lukin said: There is something incongruous about the feeback. Perhaps there is some magic going on which we're all missing until we've experienced it for ourselves, but given the shocking visual state of the work, I'm inclinded not to consider it entirely trustworthy. I do wonder how he'd fare against the trade descriptions act, actually. Perhaps it falls in to 'Red Bull gives you wiiings' territory. It's so patently untrue it is clearly humourous hyperbole- no-one would believe that the drink will cause them to sprout fully functioning wings, even though the advert directly states as such. However, I think the fact that he skirts the line of truth and outright lies so closely is also cause to be suspicious. Maybe we should all purchase something from him, and learn just how wrong everything we know has been all this time? the thing is he's not hiding anything, his photos show what work he's done and the quality so if you buy from him you are getting goods he says you're getting 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 34 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said: To suggest they're all novices (or any other dismissive description) is just an opinion to support your view. It isn't at all, it's a logical assumption. It isn't there to support a pre-existing bias which is what you seem to be getting at, it's a pretty obvious connection to make given the state of his instruments. What are your views, do you agree with me or otherwise? Do you think musicians who know what a decent guitar looks like are buying his products? Edited October 31, 2019 by lemmywinks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoubleOhStephan Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 11 minutes ago, lemmywinks said: It isn't at all, it's a logical assumption. It isn't there to support a pre-existing bias which is what you seem to be getting at, it's a pretty obvious connection to make given the state of his instruments. We can agree to disagree, but I posted his feedback score in response to a couple of comments related to feeling sorry for his customers, but as his feedback shows, his customers are overwhelmingly happy with the product he's supplied. Since then, his feedback score has been dismissed as being from people who don't know any better, beginners, that it's been curated by friends (faked) or from his wife (also faked) or just not interesting. So, which of those are logical assumptions, or is it only your assumption which is logical? 17 minutes ago, lemmywinks said: What are your views, do you agree with me or otherwise? Do you think musicians who know what a decent guitar looks like are buying his products? What I think is irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is actual real customers who've bought his products aren't unhappy with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 22 minutes ago, Beedster said: There's been a lot of that in this thread, or put another way, folks starting to clutch at straws as they realise that yes, to all intents and despite their sense of injustice, this is just another example of internet bullying, albeit by a bunch of middle-aged blokes with not much else to do apparently (I'm assuming they're all middle-aged with nothing else to do using the same logic by which they assumed age and inexperience of the buyers). If they are that angry with this guy, why don't they they contact eBay, or trading standards, or the guy himself. Given they're all so knowledgable, they could perhaps offer him some friendly advice? How is any of this online bullying? It's people commenting on the woeful standards of workmanship on instruments which are being sold by a guy with a company name, a guy who does this for a living. As I pointed out in reply to your last comment the moment someone did get a bit personal the very same people who criticise his insruments pulled that poster back. Go check it if you don't believe me, you won't (confirmation bias and all that) but it's there. Has it genuinely got to the stage when having a giggle at an incredibly badly put together instrument and the hilarious terms used to promote it is classed as "online bullying"? Are you actually for real here? I think it's also been pointed out to you in a previous thread the last time you white knighted this guy that when people do politely message him he replies in a very arrogant and rude manner. As I see it these threads are totally valid, if MDP doesn't like them then he can always improve his skills. That option was there for him years ago when he first started selling guitars and it's still there now. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemmywinks Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, DoubleOhStephan said: Since then, his feedback score has been dismissed as being from people who don't know any better, beginners, that it's been curated by friends (faked) or from his wife (also faked) or just not interesting. So, which of those are logical assumptions, or is it only your assumption which is logical? What I think is irrelevant to the point I'm making, which is actual real customers who've bought his products aren't unhappy with them. There's no reason to assume those things would be mutually exclusive, although I don't think the feedback is fake at all. Do you not think it is logical that only total novices would even consider buying his instruments? We've all bought rubbish when we didn't know any better, my first bass was crap but I thought it was pretty good at the time, same with my first Trace combo which I thought was the bees knees in the shop. I also already pointed out one customer who basically reiterated everything pointed out in this thread on his feedback, the guy who left a neutral citing " workmanship quality horrible shocking ! Rework required ". That's someone who bought a guitar and found it to be as bad as it looked. Btw he probably left neutral feedback because a full return was accepted I would think, I've done that before when I've bought something which was not as described but the seller sorted problems quickly. Edited October 31, 2019 by lemmywinks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prowla Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Taking the p155 out of overpriced bodged toot is not bullying. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikNik Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 3 hours ago, DoubleOhStephan said: Call him out all you like, that doesn't change the fact that 1. It's impossible to confirm if all his customers are informed beginners and 2. (which is the only statement of fact which I've made) he has 100% positive feedback from 164 customers in the past 12 1 hour ago, Beedster said: There's been a lot of that in this thread, or put another way, folks starting to clutch at straws as they realise that yes, to all intents and despite their sense of injustice, this is just another example of internet bullying, albeit by a bunch of middle-aged blokes with not much else to do apparently (I'm assuming they're all middle-aged with nothing else to do using the same logic by which they assumed age and inexperience of the buyers). If they are that angry with this guy, why don't they they contact eBay, or trading standards, or the guy himself. Given they're all so knowledgable, they could perhaps offer him some friendly advice? I've reported him several times over the years. Wherw is the 'bullying' taking place? I fail to see it? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikNik Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Huge Hands!😅😅 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 45 minutes ago, prowla said: Taking the p155 out of overpriced bodged toot is not bullying. One man's guardian of consumer rights is another man's bully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 29 minutes ago, NikNik said: I've reported him several times over the years. Perhaps this thread should be directed at eBay then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NikNik Posted October 31, 2019 Share Posted October 31, 2019 Just now, Beedster said: One man's guardian of consumer rights is another man's bully Oh, come on, man!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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