Does your band use a sub-woofer as part of your PA?

[lurksalot]

I really think it all comes down to whether you have someone to spend enough time and effort to set it all up and to run it on a gig ,  to run a full frequency PA , micing it up and have someone out front mixing it, is just way more prone to grief than getting a nice tight sound from a minimum of kit.

the idea is great in principle , but when you are doing mainly £250 pub gigs we were not fussed , if you were commanding big money functions with a sound man , it is possibly another story 

Edited October 9, 2019 by lurksalot

[Al Krow]

Can't disagree with that.

Pub gigs it's definitely going to be too much of a faff.

A couple of the venues we regularly play at have a great sound system, mixing desk and sound engineer - so we don't need any of our own PA gear for that. Other folk on this thread will be playing festivals, most of which I guess will also have sound systems etc.

But it's the stuff in between, particularly functions where we are providing the PA gear. Even then we "do the sound" ourselves. However our drummers are pretty adept at just micing up the kick drum which is pretty much all we are currently thinking about, although something more elaborate may be appropriate for other BC'ers.

[mrtcat]

15 hours ago, Al Krow said:

That's very interesting and somewhat goes against the FRFR 'orthodoxy' that has been set out over a volume of posts! I'm guessing you've experienced 745As in the flesh and found them lacking in comparison? What subs are you guys using?

Yeah, one of the bands I was in last year was using a pair of 745s and a pair of rcf 8003 subs. Don't get me wrong, you could put a kick through the 745s but as soon as you added a sub it was a completely different thing. If you added both it was a step up again. The sound just had way more weight to it with subs added. It didn't have to be louder (obviously it could be if needed) it just felt much more solid.

This year I'm with just one band and they have a big old ld systems rig (2x subs, 2x mids and 2x mid high) which is actually ok. Its loud and punchy but isn't going to win any awards from any audiophiles. The plan is to upgrade in 2020 but having just bought a photo booth (makes moving subs look like a dream) and a new van this year we need to consolidate a bit first. I would let them use my barefaced rig if it wasn't for the fact that the guitarist (who engineers foh) likes to push everything to the max and I prefer to look after my gear.

[mrtcat]

8 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Pub gigs it's definitely going to be too much of a faff.

It's just one or two extra boxes. Everyone knows what plugs in where and with a digital desk you just recall a saved scene and tweak. Our sound check lasts approximately 3 minutes, unless the venue is really bad (at which point it would take longer regardless of which rig), and that includes checking a song with backing track, a song where both guitars are electric and a song where singer switches to acoustic. The only time we would save by not using subs is one trip to the van. 

On another plus side, the subs have a smaller footprint than a tripod speaker stand so it leaves more floor space at small gigs.

[Al Krow]

It seems from the (very helpful, thank you!) responses so far that not all subs are equal.

My biggest concern would be muddiness of sound (= makes things worse), followed by lack of "heft" / low end kick (= not adding much).

Based on your experiences so far, are there subs that you rate highly and others you would recommend to steer clear of? Some of you have already shared your thoughts on this in earlier posts, so thanks for that.

Edited October 10, 2019 by Al Krow

[Jakester]

10 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

I'd like to say the dreaded "heft", but they lack chest thumping resonance compared to better subs I've been lucky enough to use, even at full whack. It could be poor eq on our part but I don't think so. They were comparatively cheap (ok  we only have one) and we put the kick and bass through it, tried high pass crossover and full range, I'd deffo go with a better model (RCF, EV, QSC, HK and yamaha etc..)

I’m not expert by any means, but in anticipation of getting ours, I did some reading on placement and the stuff I did read suggested that placement of two subs below the tops (as is the norm) is suboptimal as it can affect the bass through the venue through interference waves:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.soundonsound.com/techniques/bass-place%3famp

Could that be an issue?

[police squad]

I use QSC K12s and 2 x KSUB for my band gigs.

Sounds awesome with my Allen & Heath ZedFX desk.

We play outside, on a square in Deal, once a year. The gear sounds balanced and full. People always compliment on the sound

(I have a KSUB for sale in the forsale section)

[mrtcat]

56 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Based on your experiences so far, are there subs that you rate highly and others you would recommend to steer clear of? Some of you have already shared your thoughts on this in earlier posts, so thanks for that.

I rate pretty much anything that rcf and yamaha make. Some cheaper 18s aren't as good with a band as 15s in my experience because they are almost too deep. Around 60hz is where the kick hits you in the chest. I've heard lots of brands and don't think you can go too far wrong with RCF, QSC or Yamaha in the mid priced market. The barefaced lf1400 I am selling is really clean with a fast transient response so, unlike many bandpass type subs, it seems much more detailed and has less of a woolly sound to it.

[Al Krow]

With active tops like the RCF310As any tips on how best to get the tops plus one active sub connected up with a view to ensuring the tops are dealing with (say) >80Hz and sub is dealing with < 80Hz. It's classic hpf territory, I know, but not sure how you get there post-mixer and daisy chaining one top to the sub? Be very interested in how you guys are going about this and also whether 80Hz is an optimal cross-over frequency?

[Al Krow]

A post from another thread, which was very interesting in terms of getting a sound guy's perspective:

"As a FOH guy, if you are playing in anything larger than a wine bar I'll take SUBS over NO subs... 99.999999% of the time! 3-way tops might work…but single 15/12/10's simply can’t reproduce the entire spectrum to give enough "bottom". Gives me far more control over the mix, and for dance music it lets me get that chest thumping kick/bass mix going. 

So yeah…subs all the way."

[Mudpup]

13 hours ago, mrtcat said:

It's just one or two extra boxes. Everyone knows what plugs in where and with a digital desk you just recall a saved scene and tweak. Our sound check lasts approximately 3 minutes, unless the venue is really bad (at which point it would take longer regardless of which rig), and that includes checking a song with backing track, a song where both guitars are electric and a song where singer switches to acoustic. The only time we would save by not using subs is one trip to the van. 

On another plus side, the subs have a smaller footprint than a tripod speaker stand so it leaves more floor space at small gigs.

Spot on...
One extra box with a small footprint, one lead, 1 minute getting a kick level and sound, half a verse of Rosalie and we're good to go.

[tauzero]

No. One band is vocals only in the PA, the other is vocals, keys, and percussion (cajon and bongoes). I supply the PA (RCF 732s IIRC) for the first band, which gigs about three times a year, the percussionist supplies it for the other band, which plays in pubs 20+ times a year. There doesn't seem any need for the additional hassle and weight to lug around.

[spectoremg]

How did we manage for decades without amplifying the kick drum...🙄

[Phil Starr]

On ‎09‎/‎10‎/‎2019 at 23:34, Al Krow said:

Can't disagree with that.

Pub gigs it's definitely going to be too much of a faff.

A couple of the venues we regularly play at have a great sound system, mixing desk and sound engineer - so we don't need any of our own PA gear for that. Other folk on this thread will be playing festivals, most of which I guess will also have sound systems etc.

But it's the stuff in between, particularly functions where we are providing the PA gear. Even then we "do the sound" ourselves. However our drummers are pretty adept at just micing up the kick drum which is pretty much all we are currently thinking about, although something more elaborate may be appropriate for other BC'ers.

I think you've answered your own question here. It's largely about what venues you play and the drums. In most of the gigs I play the drums are a problem, they are too loud. why on earth would you wantto amplify something too loud already? I.ve some drummers who don't get that and more than once I've miked up drums with no intention of putting any drums through the PA. IME few gigs 'need' mic's on the drums. If I don't need to mic drums then do I need bass through the PA? Even if I want to reduce the backline levels most PA speakers will handle a bit o bass reinforcement so the only time I need subs is for really decent sized venues and for outdoor gigs where the bass is lost with no rear walls to reinforce the sound.

I've got subs, they come out literally once or twice a year. I like the backup of being entirely self sufficient and picked them up cheaply but need them? Well only you can decide that. Probably not for a pub band or one that goes out without a sound engineer. 

[Al Krow]

Cheers Phil - always good to have your input and insights!

One matter I'm trying to get my head around is a piece of kit that will allow me to take the XLR out from my mixer and to split it into two: one to go to my RCF310A tops with hpf applied at around 80Hz and the other to go to the sub with lpf applied at the same crossover frequency

=> both the tops and sub are working in their optimal frequency range.

Given that I am dealing with unamplified signals as I am using active tops and would be looking for an active sub, I'm guessing an hpf / lpf splitter pedal with a couple of DI outs should do the trick? Anyone using one / come across one? Or alternatively an AB/Y pedal to split the signal routed through separate hpf / lpf pedals. I appreciate that this is sounding complicated, but should be easy enough to load three pedals onto a small pedal board and just get out when the sub is being used?

[skidder652003]

2 minutes ago, Phil Starr said:

I think you've answered your own question here. It's largely about what venues you play and the drums. In most of the gigs I play the drums are a problem, they are too loud. why on earth would you wantto amplify something too loud already? I.ve some drummers who don't get that and more than once I've miked up drums with no intention of putting any drums through the PA. IME few gigs 'need' mic's on the drums. If I don't need to mic drums then do I need bass through the PA? Even if I want to reduce the backline levels most PA speakers will handle a bit o bass reinforcement so the only time I need subs is for really decent sized venues and for outdoor gigs where the bass is lost with no rear walls to reinforce the sound.

I've got subs, they come out literally once or twice a year. I like the backup of being entirely self sufficient and picked them up cheaply but need them? Well only you can decide that. Probably not for a pub band or one that goes out without a sound engineer. 

Possibly the ONLY time i have to disagree with Phil!

We always mic up the drums, guitars and DI the bass through the PA, by this we are (IMO) able to keep the onstage racket under some sort of control. Indeed the drummer has mics for snare, all 3 toms and kick as well as often 1 or 2 overheads (to be fair he does all this himself in 10 minutes), kick  and bass through Sub also (carefully controlled). Ok we're a pretty loud band but we have to keep under 90DB for most venues these days or the landlords get sweaty over the neighbours. Phil's the expert here but we always get complimented on our sound by other bands.

[skidder652003]

2 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

Cheers Phil - always good to have your input and insights!

One matter I'm trying to get my head around is a piece of kit that will allow me to take the XLR out from my mixer and to split it into two: one to go to my RCF310A tops with hpf applied at around 80Hz and the other to go to the sub with lpf applied at the same crossover frequency

=> both the tops and sub are working in their optimal frequency range.

Given that I am dealing with unamplified signals as I am using active tops and would be looking for an active sub, I'm guessing an hpf / lpf splitter pedal with a couple of DI outs should do the trick? Anyone using one / come across one? Or alternatively an AB/Y pedal to split the signal routed through separate hpf / lpf pedals. I appreciate that this is sounding complicated, but should be easy enough to load three pedals onto a small pedal board and just get out when the sub is being used?

with the Mackie, it has 2 options in the back. XLR out from tops to either HPF or full range, then sub to desk (sorry that probably sounds the wrong way round) desk to sub, with option of HPF of Full, then out to tops..hmm maybe i should go and take a picture? PS yeah its an active sub, can't see how you could use a passive one without a power amp  as well

 

Edited October 11, 2019 by skidder652003

[Al Krow]

Steve - pics are always good, so yes please!

But you weren't 100% of the fan of the Mackie, so hopefully this flexiblity is available on some of the other subs you're more keen on.

However from what you've said I'm not clear that you are managing to feed the subs with just the low end <80Hz range i.e. we really need a lpf not hpf, but maybe that is what the sub has (would make more sense!)

[jrixn1]

2 hours ago, Al Krow said:

One matter I'm trying to get my head around is a piece of kit that will allow me to take the XLR out from my mixer and to split it into two: one to go to my RCF310A tops with hpf applied at around 80Hz and the other to go to the sub with lpf applied at the same crossover frequency

=> both the tops and sub are working in their optimal frequency range.

You don't need any other gear - the filters/crossovers are built into the sub.  Take your two full-range outputs from the desk (L and R) and plug them into the sub (it will have two inputs); the sub will sum them and output just the low frequencies through its speaker.  The sub also has two "through" outputs (L and R) which are high-passed; connect those to the two tops.  I see the Alto has DSP switch to choose exactly how to high-pass the signal.

[jrixn1]

BTW there are other ways to connect subs but I think it's variations on a theme - if the tops have a built-in HPF and a full-range "through" output (eg QSC), you can connect the mixer to the tops, and then "through" to the subs.

Another way (I think what we do in our band) is not daisy chain anything - we take four XLR cables from the desk and go directly to the relevant top or sub.  It gives easier independent control of the volume of the subs and tops (sound person mixes from out front with an iPad).
 

[Al Krow]

10 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

You don't need any other gear - the filters/crossovers are built into the sub.  Take your two full-range outputs from the desk (L and R) and plug them into the sub (it will have two inputs); the sub will sum them and output just the low frequencies through its speaker.  The sub also has two "through" outputs (L and R) which are high-passed; connect those to the two tops.  I see the Alto has DSP switch to choose exactly how to high-pass the signal.

That's brilliant, thanks John. I was looking at a BF LF1400 recently and was advised I couldn't do what you've just said with the LF1400 in combination with my RCF 310As, but maybe what I was told isn't correct.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Al Krow

[jrixn1]

Hmm yes, I see.  The LF1400 only has a single input/through, and the 310s don't have any HPF options, so none of the above will work.

[jazzmanb]

Full range pa for us

EV 18IN Bins Those 2x12 stackable curved jobbies on top 

 

 

Back up pa is smaller ev bins and RCF tops 

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, jrixn1 said:

Hmm yes, I see.  The LF1400 only has a single input/through, and the 310s don't have any HPF options, so none of the above will work.

In which case I may be forced to go with the (much!) cheaper QSC Alto option; that would certainly save on the faff of getting a splitter pedal combined with separate lpf and hpf channels (and would likely set me back another £150+ or so).

Oh dear, what to do with the £££ saving 😁

On a more serious note, hopefully the QSC Alto won't sound crap / boomy in comparison to something that has the branding of BF? I generally believe you more often than not get what you pay for, and I'm struggling to think that the speaker and driver, in particular, in a £340 QSC Alto sub together with the rest of components will be anything like on a par with those used in a £1,600 (new) BF LF1400. I wasn't thinking of paying anything like that, but there are a couple currently available here and on eBay used, but the difference in new prices is noteworthy to illustrate the point i.e. the BF is over FOUR times the price of the QSC Alto new.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Al Krow
Meant Alto not QSC

[jrixn1]

12 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

hopefully the QSC won't sound crap

You're saying QSC but I think you mean Alto?

What are RCF's mid-price sub offerings?    Presumably they make one which works well with the 310A - both sound-wise and connectivity-wise?  And the logos would match...