Does your band use a sub-woofer as part of your PA?

[Al Krow]

35 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

You're saying QSC but I think you mean Alto?

What are RCF's mid-price sub offerings?    Presumably they make one which works well with the 310A - both sound-wise and connectivity-wise?  And the logos would match...

Thanks John, you're absolutely right, I meant Alto. Now corrected.

Yup matching logos - that's going to be very important to any audience members with OCD 😁

Again more seriously, not sure I've heard anyone EVER say a bad word about RCF gear (no doubt I'll shortly be proved wrong), so definitely worth checking out.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Al Krow

[Al Krow]

The smallest seems to be the RCF SUB 905-AS II - 15" 67 lbs and £1,200 (which is a lot, given what we spent on the 310As)

The Alto at £340 really is a budget option (albeit some of Behringer subs are even cheaper). I guess it would be the sensible one to dip our toes into, or see if I can get an RCF used. The only (and significant) point about going "cheap" is that if it sounds crap, it will prejudice the band against bothering with subs at all.

I think I just need to spend some time having a browse through this over the weekend:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/active_subwoofers.html

Edited October 11, 2019 by Al Krow

[jrixn1]

I saw this one: https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_sub_702_as_ii.htm
£716, 17.5kg
Never used one - no idea if it's any good!

[EBS_freak]

41 minutes ago, jrixn1 said:

I saw this one: https://www.thomann.de/gb/rcf_sub_702_as_ii.htm
£716, 17.5kg
Never used one - no idea if it's any good!

They are good if you got a lot of processing to keep the low end in check. If you are thinking  about shoving a kick through then and thinking it’ll be fine just straight through the desks without processing, they’ll fart out.

 

edit - used to play with a band now and again who had a pair of them as it’s all the band leader could fit in the car. For the whole they were good - as I say, with processing.

Edited October 11, 2019 by EBS_freak

[Al Krow]

I do like the look of that one (although I'm assuming no longer in production as it didn't show up on the RCF website when I just looked), particularly as it's < 40lbs!

Be interested to understand from @EBS_freak what he has in mind re 'processing'.

[Jakester]

1 hour ago, Al Krow said:

The smallest seems to be the RCF SUB 905-AS II - 15" 67 lbs and £1,200 (which is a lot, given what we spent on the 310As)

The Alto at £340 really is a budget option (albeit some of Behringer subs are even cheaper). I guess it would be the sensible one to dip our toes into, or see if I can get an RCF used. The only (and significant) point about going "cheap" is that if it sounds crap, it will prejudice the band against bothering with subs at all.

I think I just need to spend some time having a browse through this over the weekend:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/active_subwoofers.html

I mentioned above we just got one - I had one of these off Paul:

Probably an easy way to dip your toe in without blowing the budget, plus he was a pleasure to deal with!

[jrixn1]

10 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

although I'm assuming no longer in production as it didn't show up on the RCF website when I just looked

I can see it... 
Either: rcf.it > Products > By Family > Sub Series > 

Or: rcf.it > Products > By Feature > Subwoofers >
https://www.rcf.it/en_US/products/product-detail/sub-702-as-ii/233962
 

[EBS_freak]

24 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

I do like the look of that one (although I'm assuming no longer in production as it didn't show up on the RCF website when I just looked), particularly as it's < 40lbs!

Be interested to understand from @EBS_freak what he has in mind re 'processing'.

Primarily, as a minimum, something to implement a HPF at around 50Hz+ and compression/limiting.

[Al Krow]

1 hour ago, EBS_freak said:

Primarily, as a minimum, something to implement a HPF at around 50Hz+ and compression/limiting.

So usual low end cut...which seems to be defeating the whole purpose of a meaty chest thumping sub! But I guess with the smaller form factor of this unit I shouldn't have too high expectations.

Edited October 11, 2019 by Al Krow

[redbandit599]

My pa is two RCF 325A tops, and two RCF 705AS Mk1 subs.

These are the older series, and below the power levels of most of the newer range. But, they continually surprise us and we have a rep for a big sound (not loud, big!)

Small pubs, just the tops, bit bigger add one sub (much fatter), big venues both subs (woah!)

We've played three outdoor events with our PA this year and the full rig has been great. You don't want to be 'festival loud' as the punters come closer and into the music. But we've been heard and complimented from the far side of speedway track, a football pitch and a playing field.

So, the older RCFs are good - the subs have the two inputs and crossover at either 80 or 100hz (we use 80.)

Sure the newer ones are epic!

Oh, yes - if you can position the subs centrally (we've tucked them under a truck and stage) - can get a good thump without overpowering the tops ime.

Edited October 11, 2019 by redbandit599

[EBS_freak]

35 minutes ago, Al Krow said:

So usual low end cut...which seems to be defeating the whole purpose of a meaty chest thumping sub! But I guess with the smaller form factor of this unit I shouldn't have too high expectations.

No - not at all. There's very little sub 50hz that is useful in a band context. If you end up pumping out those kinda sub sub lows, its going to make your band sound pretty muddy. Chest thump exists between 50 and 65hz. But in order to feel chest thump, you need to move a great deal of air... Remember these are 12s - so its going to be more what you can hear rather what you can feel. Also, its worth remembering that when you feel big bass at gigs, there's usually some sine wave trickery going on, especially with kick drums where the majority of the discernible audible content is being in the 1st and 2nd harmonic range.

With subs, what you are buying, is a speaker and amp that is geared for reproducing bass. Obviously. However - if you get a top and try and load a load of bass through it, you'll soon be eating into the headroom of that amp and cab and it'll start to suffer. The sub takes a sub section of frequencies that are very difficult to amplify well - and focuses on reproducing those frequencies and those frequencies alone. By removing the need to amplify those hard punishing frequencies from your tops, your PA setup gains more headroom and should sound better for it. So yes, low end cut... but you'd be amazed how many people can't even get that right.

Edited October 11, 2019 by EBS_freak

[EBS_freak]

13 minutes ago, redbandit599 said:

Oh, yes - if you can position the subs centrally (we've tucked them under a truck and stage) - can get a good thump without overpowering the tops ime.

And a 3db boost for free.

[paul_c2]

I'd have thought this question is more driven by the science/facts than the "artistic" interpretation of what might be perceived as sounding good or not. If your PA can produce a fairly flat (or tweaked to be flattering) output, at the required/desired sound pressure level, in the environment or room you're playing in, without subs, then you don't need subs. If its not "doing it", or you're ending up going with 4, 6 or more mains, then perhaps some of those speakers ought to be subs so you are able to get the best out of the mains without needing to worry that half the power is going to a bass frequency that a small fraction of the band's overall sound (a small, but important, part though).

So it becomes almost a question directly linked to the size of the venue. Above (say) 300-400 seater venue and subs are going to be the efficient way to do it.

Fortunately I'm in a band which doesn't need to worry too much about the PA. We're relatively quiet; and putting to one side the outdoors events this summer, haven't needed to play anywhere bigger than ~200 yet. And I think if we did bigger, we'd simply either rely on the house PA or hire kit in, rather than need to invest in PA stuff too much. So the PA equipment we DO own is mainly for rehearsals (in a very echo-y, not-too-big hall) but can do smaller venues with no worries too.

[EBS_freak]

2 minutes ago, paul_c2 said:

I'd have thought this question is more driven by the science/facts than the "artistic" interpretation of what might be perceived as sounding good or not. If your PA can produce a fairly flat (or tweaked to be flattering) output, at the required/desired sound pressure level, in the environment or room you're playing in, without subs, then you don't need subs.

OK, there's twos ways of looking at this.

Can your PA produce a fairly flat output? Yes? OK.

Does it do it with low levels of distortion? Err....

Ever wonder why some PAs can be loud (I know thats an awful term to use without any measurement) without killing your ears and getting your ears all really fatigued? That's most likely because they are reproducing the frequencies, at volume, with less distortion than other setups that do kill your ears...

...yet if you were to meter them, both setups are reproducing the whole frequency range.

[redbandit599]

33 minutes ago, EBS_freak said:

And a 3db boost for free.

I'm tempted to ask how that works, but I suspect the science will lose me ! But two together and central, even just ticking over gives the chest thump we all like 🙂

 

[Phil Starr]

10 hours ago, skidder652003 said:

Possibly the ONLY time i have to disagree with Phil!

We always mic up the drums, guitars and DI the bass through the PA, by this we are (IMO) able to keep the onstage racket under some sort of control. Indeed the drummer has mics for snare, all 3 toms and kick as well as often 1 or 2 overheads (to be fair he does all this himself in 10 minutes), kick  and bass through Sub also (carefully controlled). Ok we're a pretty loud band but we have to keep under 90DB for most venues these days or the landlords get sweaty over the neighbours. Phil's the expert here but we always get complimented on our sound by other bands.

Disagreement is good. It shows that no-one is gospel and that there are more than single solutions that work. 

I've seen Steve's band two or three times. They are seriously good and very seriously loud. When I saw them down in The Marine in Sidmouth they were ear splitting, but Steve is right the mix and clarity is really good. I haven't heard anyone else that loud recently though.

[Phil Starr]

Hi Al, if you want to 'dip your toe' then a couple of suggestions. My subs are Wharfedale EVP's like the Mackies they have the crossover built into the subs. I picked mine up for £250ish for a pair and we've done open air gigs with them. I've also got a couple of JBL's They aren't the loudest or best sounding of subs but it is surprising about how little sub you need to add to fill out the sound and how that in turn allows your tops to do what they do best. I didn't really want the JBL's but someone sold me a pair for £100 and 15" active subs for that price was too good to turn down.

There are quite a few subs with the crossovers in so look around for them. If not then a simple crossover for less than £100 is available

I'd completely concur with EBSFreak there's nothing of any interest below 50Hz that is going to improve your sound.

Technically using subs gives you some genuine advantages. They are going to remove 30%ish of your power from the tops. This means they will run cooler and more reliably. Cooler is good because heat causes the resistance of the speaker to rise and you get reduced output and increased distortion. You will also reduce the excursion of the bass/mid driver in your tops. This means the coil will stay within the linear part of the magnetic field and distortion is reduced.

In the end you need to engineer a system that suits your needs. 

[paul_c2]

4 hours ago, redbandit599 said:

I'm tempted to ask how that works, but I suspect the science will lose me ! But two together and central, even just ticking over gives the chest thump we all like 🙂

 

The placing of 2 subs together doesn't give a 3db boost - BUT it does prevent "power alley". (Google if you want to know more - I can't think of a simple way to explain it!!!!!)

I think the +3db comment is due to its placement on the floor, which allows the floor to interact and reflect the bass frequencies - proximity effect. Further boost also occurs if its placed near a wall, or near 2 walls ie in the corner of a room. Its a handy little thing to get more volume but only in the bass frequencies, it tails off as the frequency rises.

[tauzero]

Wouldn't an active crossover do the job that Al needs? Something like https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_cx3400_super_x_pro_v2.htm for example, seeing as it's working at line-level not speaker-level voltages.

[Al Krow]

3 hours ago, tauzero said:

Wouldn't an active crossover do the job that Al needs? Something like https://www.thomann.de/gb/behringer_cx3400_super_x_pro_v2.htm for example, seeing as it's working at line-level not speaker-level voltages.

That's a good shout, although that Behringer did look like quite a substantial additional piece of kit, albeit amazingly good value in typical Behringer fashion!

I've just come across this - the Rolls SX21 crossover unit, which looks simple and compact. Although its two outputs are unbalanced, not sure that's going to make too much of a difference?

Seems to me I could just take an output from the mixer as the input to this unit, set the crossover frequency at (say) 120Hz and send the low to the sub and the high to the tops. Job done?

Edited October 11, 2019 by Al Krow

[HazBeen]

Often we do, small gigs we will generally only route vocals and keys through the PA, if we add guitars/kick etc we take a small sub. Makes a big difference.

[HazBeen]

Btw Alto surprised me, good value for money and whilst not in RCF territory very useable.

[Al Krow]

13 minutes ago, HazBeen said:

Often we do, small gigs we will generally only route vocals and keys through the PA, if we add guitars/kick etc we take a small sub. Makes a big difference.

Which sub are you using Harry? 

[HazBeen]

9 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Which sub are you using Harry? 

EV ELX200 15SP I believe it is called, a mid priced sub. But we actually used to have the Alto TS series, incl sub and I can’t say they were significantly worse than pur current EV setup.

[Al Krow]

Had just over 100 responses in from bands both here and in the US.

Results took me by surprise: about 70% of bands said that they used a sub as part of their PA and another approx 10% that they were thinking of getting one.

Perhaps a skewed sample in that bands who don't use maybe simply haven't registered, but for some reason I thought the proportion of bands using would be lower maybe 50:50 or less.

But based on your feedback (for which many thanks!) clearly subs are both popular with gigging bands and obviously seem to work in practice. 

Looks like I need to start making the case to my covers bands! 

Edited October 16, 2019 by Al Krow