Bass synth and the search for an accessible arpeggiator.

[Quatschmacher]

4 minutes ago, Woodinblack said:

Are those the pitches of the steps? I am assuming you can change the number of steps.

Semitone offsets from the input pitch. 

[Kiwi]

2 hours ago, GisserD said:

@Kiwi The Source audio C4 has a programable sequencer..... it might be of interest to you?

 

@Quatschmacherwill be along shortly to tell you if its any good or not.

Yes its definitely of interest. I'm just doing a bit of digging around to see how easy it might be to use as a pedal and how it handles tempo when there are no MIDI ports.  Am I correct in understanding there are only 6 user defined presets available?  The stacked voicings look particularly interesting if I can dedicate one sequencer exclusively to a voice.  It looks like it might be able to do the Heartbreak bassline all by itself if that is possible.

[Al Krow]

Midi available through USB, I believe 

128 user presets (via PC and smartphone) not 6

[Quatschmacher]

38 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

Yes its definitely of interest. I'm just doing a bit of digging around to see how easy it might be to use as a pedal and how it handles tempo when there are no MIDI ports.  Am I correct in understanding there are only 6 user defined presets available?  The stacked voicings look particularly interesting if I can dedicate one sequencer exclusively to a voice.  It looks like it might be able to do the Heartbreak bassline all by itself if that is possible.

The tempo can be programmed to one of the assignable knobs if you don’t want to use MIDI clock but want to be able to change tempo easily. 

Edited October 15, 2019 by Quatschmacher

[DanOwens]

Brother I feel your pain. I had a custom routing switcher so I could split / sum multiple boards and pitch-to-midi. I was a dreadlocked DnB fanatic. I'm now a bald double bass player; make of that what you will!

I wanted 5 parallel signal paths and the band were all midi-syncd so we had a lot of flexibility; my problem came in the sum / split phase and I think if I was doing it today my setup would be similar to you (I was doing it 10 bloody years ago!). Keep up the efforts! 

[Kiwi]

4 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

The tempo can be programmed to one of the assignable knobs if you don’t want to use MIDI clock but want to be able to change tempo easily. 

 

4 hours ago, Al Krow said:

Midi available through USB, I believe

I do want to use MIDI clock, the challenge seems to be connectivity when syncing tempo across all pedals.  Like...how am I going to connect a USB port to a MIDI port...

Change of subject, apparently there is a wet only mod available for the EHX Freeze from a company called Mimmotronics.
https://mimmotronics.com/product/ehx-freeze/

[GisserD]

The C4 is (will be soon) controllable with the SA hub. This also allows it to receive midi clock as well as program changes, cc data ect.

[Quatschmacher]

29 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

how am I going to connect a USB port to a MIDI port...

Disaster area make products which do this. MIDI Ghost I believe it is called.

[Quatschmacher]

9 minutes ago, GisserD said:

The C4 is (will be soon) controllable with the SA hub. This also allows it to receive midi clock as well as program changes, cc data ect.

This too. In fact I’m awaiting the new firmware as I’m going to be beta testing it. 

[Quatschmacher]

Here’s my first stab at the C4 sequencers:

 

[Kiwi]

12 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

Here’s my first stab at the C4 sequencers:

Yes that's sort of the direction I was hoping it might go in.  The ability to route different voices to either one of the output sockets could be handy too - could even make the Future Impact redundant. MIDI connectivity is still a bit of an issue though, without that Disaster Area USB/MIDI interface.

Speaking of connectivity, I managed to clock sync the Moment Machine with the Adrenalinn III today.  For some reason they were getting on with each other today while they weren't yesterday.  So I can adjust tap tempo on the Adrenalinn regardless of audio connections and within about a second maybe two, the Moment Machine adjusts to match.  I haven't yet tried to check how well they sound together.  Maybe tomorrow if I have a chance.

Tom from Cooper FX also replied to an email I sent asking about how to confirm the Moment Machine was sync'd.  He mentioned that the BPM display goes blank but needed more information.  Before I replied, I discovered the tap tempo LED actually flashes in time.

I also discovered the Adrenalinn's clock signal is generated by the drum machine function not by the tap tempo.  There is a way of stopping the drum machine from making a sound but I would need to check whether this affects the clock signal also.

The one thing that is becoming apparent is how little detail on how to use the deeper features in the user manuals of both pedals.

[Quatschmacher]

1 hour ago, Kiwi said:

Yes that's sort of the direction I was hoping it might go in.  The ability to route different voices to either one of the output sockets could be handy too - could even make the Future Impact redundant. MIDI connectivity is still a bit of an issue though, without that Disaster Area USB/MIDI interface.

Speaking of connectivity, I managed to clock sync the Moment Machine with the Adrenalinn III today.  For some reason they were getting on with each other today while they weren't yesterday.  So I can adjust tap tempo on the Adrenalinn regardless of audio connections and within about a second maybe two, the Moment Machine adjusts to match.  I haven't yet tried to check how well they sound together.  Maybe tomorrow if I have a chance.

Tom from Cooper FX also replied to an email I sent asking about how to confirm the Moment Machine was sync'd.  He mentioned that the BPM display goes blank but needed more information.  Before I replied, I discovered the tap tempo LED actually flashes in time.

I also discovered the Adrenalinn's clock signal is generated by the drum machine function not by the tap tempo.  There is a way of stopping the drum machine from making a sound but I would need to check whether this affects the clock signal also.

The one thing that is becoming apparent is how little detail on how to use the deeper features in the user manuals of both pedals.

I don’t think the C4 makes the Future Impact redundant by any means. Granted, C4 does stuff does stuff the FI can’t do but the same is very much true the other way around. 

[Kiwi]

2 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

I don’t think the C4 makes the Future Impact redundant by any means. Granted, C4 does stuff does stuff the FI can’t do but the same is very much true the other way around. 

I was speaking in context of my pedalboard aspirations and needs.  Perhaps i didn't make the context clear enough.

[Quatschmacher]

7 minutes ago, Kiwi said:

I was speaking in context of my pedalboard aspirations and needs.  Perhaps i didn't make the context clear enough.

Ah, I see. 

[Quatschmacher]

Here's another C4 sequence:

 

[Kiwi]

@Quatschmacher does the sequencer on the C4 have a null option for each step?  By that I mean the capacity for a step to be silenced in a pattern? 

[Quatschmacher]

3 hours ago, Kiwi said:

@Quatschmacher does the sequencer on the C4 have a null option for each step?  By that I mean the capacity for a step to be silenced in a pattern? 

Not currently, though it has be requested as an update by a few users. You can fake it by selecting the highest or lowest pitch for that step, it’s not perfect but can get the desired result with an appropriate filter setting. 

[itu]

mooer E7

http://www.mooeraudio.com/product/E7-230.html

 

As a side note, there is also this: http://www.mooeraudio.com/product/TONE-CAPTURE-GTR-227.html

[Kiwi]

Mooer make some great stuff.  I have their Ocean Machine delay/reverb on my guitar pedal board.  But that pedal doesn't have MIDI so it seems there is no clock sync available. 

[Kiwi]

So the C4 and EHX Tri Parallel Mixer arrived courtesy of a personal courier on Friday.  The Tri mixer is a nice bit of kit, very smooth operation and noise free. 

So far I have only been able to scratch the surface of the C4 with the editor in setting up an account, downloading some user patches and assigning them to the toggle switch so I can listen to them.  The lack of a MIDI IN/OUT port or the ability to switch between all 128 patches without getting extra kit is a major fail for me.  However, the pedal tracks slightly better than the FI and the sounds are full and warm.

The need for a wet only Freeze pedal has been confirmed.  Hitting a second note while the Freeze is sustaining sends the C4 tracking for the arpeggiator into a garbled mess.  The arpeggiator itself is great, the notes are full with good attack and distinction, it's exactly what I have been looking for. 

The desktop editor is functional but user interface still needs improving.  The ability to select multiple patches to save/upload/download/export/import is badly needed. At the moment it is patch by patch.  The phone app was confusing to use, it wasn't clear how to get patches into the pedal and I was getting a transferred to pedal message from tapping patches even though the app was clearly not attached to the pedal.  It would also be useful to have a way to check the patches using an integrated piano keyboard like the FI's editor has. 

Also, when downloading and burning a patch the editor returns to the library screen rather than the screen where you were last working meaning it takes a good two or three clicks to get back where you were to do the next save/burn/upload.

Next steps will be to sort out some glitchy cables, try and find a modded Freeze pedal from somewhere...given Mimmotronics don't seem to be interested in talking to me.  And I will also start setting up some patches for the songs I like.

[Quatschmacher]

4 hours ago, Kiwi said:

Also, when downloading and burning a patch the editor returns to the library screen rather than the screen where you were last working meaning it takes a good two or three clicks to get back where you were to do the next save/burn/upload.

That is cumbersome, I suggest we email Source Audio and they may well change it. 

 

4 hours ago, Kiwi said:

The lack of a MIDI IN/OUT port or the ability to switch between all 128 patches without getting extra kit is a major fail for me.  However, the pedal tracks slightly better than the FI and the sounds are full and warm.

You can use a phone/tablet into the USB port to control patch changing. 

I’ve just got a Morningstar MC6 MKII and it’s allowing me to do wonderful things with the FI. Extra kit isn’t always a negative thing. The drag with the C4 in this regard is that it needs a USB host (the MC6 isn’t one) do I still need something to get it to communicate over MIDI. The biggest drawback is that most USB hosts only allow for a single USB MIDI connection. However, once done, there is loads of extra control available as most parameters can be assigned a MIDI CC and controlled in real time. 

Source Audio stuff works really well with their Hub, especially with the SB2 line as you have access to all parameters on the pedal surface. It’s a bit more tech-heavy with the One Series stuff as you either have more limited access with just the six presets and four knobs or you have to use the Neuro app (either phone or desktop) to adjust parameters. In fact I could just use the Hub to store patches instead and it’ll hook straight up to the MC6 via 5-pin MIDI DIN.

4 hours ago, Kiwi said:

The desktop editor is functional but user interface still needs improving.  The ability to select multiple patches to save/upload/download/export/import is badly needed. At the moment it is patch by patch.  The phone app was confusing to use, it wasn't clear how to get patches into the pedal and I was getting a transferred to pedal message from tapping patches even though the app was clearly not attached to the pedal.  It would also be useful to have a way to check the patches using an integrated piano keyboard like the FI's editor has. 

I think this works pretty well as you get to audition patches really easily and can decide if you like it and download only those you like, rather than downloading loads and wading through.

While browsing, you can simply “add to library” and then tweak and burn to the pedal later. (Or you can immediately load it on).

I’d prefer all parameters to be visible without having to scroll the page  (The FI does this and it's a major plus.)

The phone app is tricky as it’s only one way communication (it sends signals via audio so cannot read information from the pedal). It means that there can be a “disconnect” between what you hear after making parameter changes and what the app burns to the preset slot. Making small adjustments without first doing a “burn all” is more for saving patches on the Hub which will scan and store the pedal’s current state. By contrast, burning the app contents to pedal memory will send the current app settings which may not correspond to what is being heard on the pedal at that moment. (If you always burn all parameters from the app before building a sound then this avoids this.) The other thing is that you can’t see what’s already on the preset slot you plan to overwrite.

An integrated keyboard in the editor would be pointless as the C4 is triggered by audio only (remember the FI can also be triggered by MIDI notes, which is why there’s a keyboard).

4 hours ago, Kiwi said:

So far I have only been able to scratch the surface of the C4 with the editor in setting up an account, downloading some user patches and assigning them to the toggle switch so I can listen to them.

Do you realise that while the pedal is hooked up to the app/editor you can simply click the patch name and it gets loaded into the edit buffer to audition immediately? (You don’t need to burn it to a slot/toggle switch in order to hear them.)  Or is it that when downloading you don’t/cannot have your bass plugged in and pedal plugged into the amp/audio interface?

 

[Kiwi]

8 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

That is cumbersome, I suggest we email Source Audio and they may well change it.

OK I'd be happy to do that.  But what I'm looking for is basic SHIFT/CTRL+click functionality to select more than one patch at the same time.

8 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

You can use a phone/tablet into the USB port to control patch changing.

OK assuming it's plug in and play, I will give that a go and see what happens.

8 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

I’ve just got a Morningstar MC6 MKII and it’s allowing me to do wonderful things with the FI. Extra kit isn’t always a negative thing. The drag with the C4 in this regard is that it needs a USB host (the MC6 isn’t one) do I still need something to get it to communicate over MIDI.

Disaster Area have made their micro.Ghost USB to MIDI converter available for use with SA pedals but it's US$89 and the SA Neuro Hub is $99 plus the cost of the footswitches!  I'd say it's a negative if I have to spend that much to make the pedal have the same basic functionality as the others on my board.  It seems like they prioritised the form factor over connectivity and convenience. A slightly larger box would have allowed a second patch selecting footswitch and both USB and MIDI sockets...consistent with other MIDI capable pedal manufacturers.  It's one thing to be ahead of the curve but it's quite another to be leaving people behind and then requiring more dosh (from either them or other suppliers) to give them the basic connectivity in pedals by other manufacturers.

8 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

The phone app is tricky as it’s only one way communication (it sends signals via audio so cannot read information from the pedal).

I've had a look through the user manual and haven't managed to find a reference to the app sending signals to the pedal via audio.  The internal cross referencing hyperlinks in the PDF don't work either.

Leafing through the manual also reveals many references to using the pedal with a DAW including justification for using a USB socket.  I find this baffling since most composers will already have access to the same functionality in any one of hundreds of MIDI capable keyboards and an arpeggiating functionality in the sequencing software they use.  I'd expect most players will be using this pedal to do things live that they can't do in the studio. 

8 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

An integrated keyboard in the editor would be pointless as the C4 is triggered by audio only (remember the FI can also be triggered by MIDI notes, which is why there’s a keyboard).

Well that's an explanation I guess.  Having a sparingly used guitar sitting on the lap for half a day while editing a patch isn't convenient.  Much better I guess to use some kind of cheap keyboard with a 6.35mm output jack which could connect to the C4.  Or the editor can assign an octave of notes to keys on the PC keyboard in the same layout as a piano keyboard and use the Windows GM MIDI wavetable as an audio source.  It's been done before.

8 hours ago, Quatschmacher said:

Do you realise that while the pedal is hooked up to the app/editor you can simply click the patch name and it gets loaded into the edit buffer to audition immediately? (You don’t need to burn it to a slot/toggle switch in order to hear them.)  Or is it that when downloading you don’t/cannot have your bass plugged in and pedal plugged into the amp/audio interface?

Yes I was aware of it. I mentioned earlier that tapping a patch resulted in a message 'sent to pedal' even when the pedal wasn't connected. 

When I'm downloading I don't have my bass plugged in.  It's inconvenient and uncomfortable to be reaching over it to type or use the mouse for any long periods of time.  For short durations it's no problem.

Don't get me wrong about the C4.  It does the thing I got it for really well.  But it's let down by a lack of consideration for finer details of the user.  It's like the designers had a set of goals they wanted to achieve that weren't 100% aligned with how people use pedals like this in their pedal boards.

They're not alone, I've mentioned something similar about Eventide as well.  The Pitchfactor has an arp (which is where this journey began originally) but it's not user programmable...even in the editing software! 

[Kiwi]

I discovered yesterday that there's no triangle wave available in the waveforms of the C4 but it does have a sine wave. Whereas the FI has a triangle waveform but no sine.  I"m guessing that's because they sound kind of close but the triangle sounds a bit warmer to my ears.  For editing single patches I'm finding the Neuro editor is much much easier to use than the FI.  Mainly this is due to the use of pull down menus which shows quickly what is set up and how it's connected to other sections.

By comparison, the FI user interface is more like a 70's modular synth so it's necessary to look at the sliders to know what is happening and where signal is going, then imagine how that is connected.

[Quatschmacher]

3 hours ago, Kiwi said:

I discovered yesterday that there's no triangle wave available in the waveforms of the C4 but it does have a sine wave. Whereas the FI has a triangle waveform but no sine.  I"m guessing that's because they sound kind of close but the triangle sounds a bit warmer to my ears.  For editing single patches I'm finding the Neuro editor is much much easier to use than the FI.  Mainly this is due to the use of pull down menus which shows quickly what is set up and how it's connected to other sections.

By comparison, the FI user interface is more like a 70's modular synth so it's necessary to look at the sliders to know what is happening and where signal is going, then imagine how that is connected.

I personally find the FI interface better (though I’ve spent way more time using it). Seeing all parameters at once is useful. The signal flow is fixed so once you’ve grasped it it’s fine. 

[Kiwi]

Update: I've been doing yet more digging around on Google and on another forum found a comparison of the EHX Freeze with the EHX SuperEgo Plus (basically a pseudo synth and effects pedal) and the Gamechanger Pedal Plus.  

You might have already heard Gamechanger, they made a pedal that relies on plasma spark to make your guitar sound like a Tesla coil.  Anyway, they also make a sustain pedal call the Pedal Plus and it appears to have a wet only output. It's a big pedal but seems to have a lot of potential.

https://www.gamechangeraudio.com/pluspedal/