Preamp + amp + cab: possible set up ?

[Helbass]

Hi everybody,

I've recently bought an used Battalion that provides me with an EQ and a DI out that my combo (EBS Classic Session 120) already has. Moreover, my guitarist could sell me an interesting Hartke HX112 at an unbeatable price but without amp head.

The Battalion could be enough for rehearsals and for some gigs but I'll sometimes need my own gear to play (at home for example). So my idea is to sell my combo, buy the cab and also a power amp instead of the usual amp head. This way, I could bring the Battalion and always have the same EQ with me and plug it on the power amp when needed.

Is it a good idea or not ? Will it work, or will the Battalion have too much or not enought I-Don't-know-what (dBu, ohms or whatever) to the power amp ?

For the power amp, the Samson Servo 300 seems to be what I wanted: I could bridge it to deliver 300W under 8 ohms which is the more that the Hartke cab could handle. Does it seem good for my purpose or I have you another gear on mind ?

Thanks a lot for your answers.

[EliasMooseblaster]

I think it should work. The Battalion is a preamp built into a pedal, so it does the same job as a preamp that sits in a box on top of your speaker. It will be sufficient to shape and buffer your signal so that the power amp can amplify the sound and drive the speaker.

[jrixn1]

What is the problem with plugging the Battalion into the EBS?  Set the EBS eq as flat/neutral as it goes.  Will the Hartke + power amp setup sound any better, louder, or be more convenient, be more scaleable, or save you any money?
 

[Helbass]

Yes, it's more a loudness thing. I want a more powerful setup and this is a way to have it at a reasonable price. And the Hartke sounded good to my ears when I used it on rehearsals before the old amp head went down. EBS sounds good too but in another way.

I never say it was a good idea and if someone says that my power amp+cab project won't worth it that much compared to my actual EBS combo, I'll think about it. So it's a good idea to warn me before I do something stupid.

[EliasMooseblaster]

It's a bit hard to predict. I've played through a few Hartke combos, but I'm not familiar with the EBS. You mentioned that the Servo 300 is more powerful than the Hartke cab is rated for - do you know how many watts you could safely put into the speaker?

One thing that might be worth trying is to take the signal from the Battalion and plug it into the Effects-Return socket on the EBS. Then you can bypass the preamp in the EBS, and go straight to the power amp, which you can control from the master volume. Of course, you are still limited by the power the EBS can deliver, but at least you can keep your sound more consistent this way.

[Jack]

The samson has a relatively high input sensitivity, you'll need to give it 1.24V to get all of those 300W. I don't know what the batallion will do, but 1.24V is quite a lot for a pedal preamp. It's also big, heavy and not very powerful....

 

I've always been tempted by these. I don't have any first hand experience but they get great reviews and a 1V input sensitivity will be a little easier on the pedal. Half the size and a little lighter than the Samson, not to mention about £50 cheaper.

[jrixn1]

I think the modular approach is a really good one.  I use a preamp pedal into various outputs depending on the gig: a powered speaker (RCF 732A), borrowed backline, in-ear monitors, or provided wedges - which means I can get the same familiar "my sound/tone" each time.

One thing to consider is that the Harke might impart its own tone.  However I've used a borrowed HyDrive 115C combo in the past and I don't love it but I also don't recall it being particularly coloured.

I've not used a Samson Servo 300 but another thing to bear in mind is that in bridged mode you'll be at its limits at 300W - i.e. nowhere left to go if it turns out it isn't loud enough, or in the future you want to add a second cab.  Crown make some power amps which are popular with bassists: https://www.thomann.de/gb/crown_xls_1002.htm or https://www.thomann.de/gb/crown_xls_1502.htm  Also, they have a lower sensitivity setting of 0.775V - see previous poster's comments.

Another option perhaps worth mentioning is a powered speaker like a QSC or RCF, which has the advantage of matching the power amp to the speaker, and other DSP options; plus the wedge option, and convenience of a self-contained unit.  I find them powerful and with a lot of clarity - I can't see myself ever returning to a traditional bass rig.  However, I guess part of the appeal of your potential setup is the deal you are getting on the Hartke.

[Helbass]

Thank you all for your replies, it gives me a lot to think about.

@EliasMooseblasterMy EBS combo unfortunately doesn't have any send-return. The Hartke cab could handle 300W, I did a mistake when writing that it was less 🙃.

@Jack Thanks for the sensitivity tip, I didn't know that. I'll mind that for my further investigations and I forget the Samson.

@jrixn1 Crown power amps were also on my list and yes, the deal with the Hartke was the base for my initial setup. But your idea of a powered speaker remind me that one day, a buyer tried the bass I was selling on one of those and it sounded interestingly nice so I'll also look that way.

More questions now come to my mind about power amp and powered speakers: will I have to plug in the mic or in the line input ? And do I have to use the amp output of the Battalion or the DI one ?

I've got time, my combo is not yet sold.

 

[jrixn1]

35 minutes ago, Helbass said:

More questions now come to my mind about power amp and powered speakers: will I have to plug in the mic or in the line input ? And do I have to use the amp output of the Battalion or the DI one ?

I'd use the DI only to send to the FOH PA system.  (It's at mic level btw)

I'd use the pedal "amp" output to send to my powered speaker.  The pedal output will be in between mic and line levels, so you can use either mic level input with the volume on your powered speaker turned higher, or line level input with the volume on your powered speaker turned lower.  I do the first option.

 

Edited October 15, 2019 by jrixn1

[Helbass]

The more I look at powered speakers, the more it seems to be what I'll go for  because it could also works with my acoustic bass which have high and low Z outputs and its own EQ and I din't plug anything else when playing with it.

The RCF ART 315A (MK IV) but again, I've got questions:

- the power is 400W RMS but is it under 4 ohms, when another cab is plugged in ? I guess that this powered speaker alone only deliver 200W RMS.

- Could I plug my together my bass (and Battalion) in the XLR input and a MP3 player on the jack input ? I've seen powered speakers that includes a MP3 player or an aux in but RCF seems good for a main bass playing purpose.

[jrixn1]

The RCF (and most powered speakers I've seen) can't drive a second cab.  The XLR output is a link which means it sends a duplicate of the input signal - this is to plug into another powered speaker, not a passive cabinet.

But it does mean the internal speakers are getting the full 400W.  I think it's 300W to the woofer and 100W to the compression driver.

You can't plug two inputs into the RCF (without using an external mixer).  For more connectivity options, there is QSC or perhaps a JBL EON (I've not used one myself but it looks ok).
 

[Jack]

2 hours ago, Helbass said:

.......The RCF ART 315A (MK IV) but again, I've got questions...

Slight thread hijack sorry. RCF make 2 series of cabinets (well, they make loads but only 2 are relevant to this discussion). The 7 series is really highly thought of, and amongst the best FRFR cabs for basses. The 3 series are lighter duty and not as capable. I don't know you or your band requirements and maybe the 315 would be more that adequate but I wonder if you're conflating the 315 and the 735/745. They're worlds apart.

[Helbass]

Even if your answers brings more questions to my mind and make it harder to take a decision, they're very helpful. It's very interesting since the preamp+powered speaker way seems to be what I was looking for without knowing it. Even the power amp+cab I was asking for at the beginning is gradually slipping out of my mind.

Actually, it's more a matter of what I could afford than what I really need. Each of your answers make it more expensive but I don't want to regret my choice in term of sound quality.

I've had a look at other brands but RCF beats them all and QSC is too expensive for me.

What about the RCF ART 710A compared to the 315 ? Same price, same SPL max, different speaker size, which one would you choose  ? I could hardly afford more, maybe I could push to the 712 if the 71X serie worth it for bass playing. I'll see for a used powered speaker when I'll take a decision.

[LukeFRC]

I had a great 1u rack mount preamp.
I had a cab.

I bought a poweramp. It was big and heavy and fairly deep.

I had three boxes, a preamp that sometimes I didn't need the poweramp with, and a case that the amp and cab went into that would make everything big heavy and cumbersome. 
I sold the lot and got a combo that was one lift and fit in the back of the car. 

In your case if you're trying to get a bigger rig for not much money - you can pick up the hartke cab... then look for an older head, Ashdown, Trace Elliot, Hartke etc ... they can be had for cheap- there was a Trace AH12-SMX on here for £150 last week... something like that would do you well... 

Then plug amp into cab. If you prefer your preamps sound use that into the effects return, or if not use the amp's preamp, or even both! (you've now the choice)